Adjustments to Gargos' and RAAM's enders

Gargos

Why does Gargos get damage plus hard knockdown (meaning a free minion) off of the same ender? That kinda goes against the rules for enders, doesn’t it? I think it would be okay if it was done from a neutral (or shadow) command grab, but not an ender. I’d suggest that you make his damage ender a soft knockdown like every other damage ender in the game. If Gargos wants a minion, I think he should have to sacrifice damage and use his launcher ender instead.

On a related note, since he can summon a minion off of a HKD in between rounds, can Aganos be given the ability to grab a chunk under the same circumstances?

General RAAM

Something needs to be done about his Kryll Rush and Emergence enders. Both of them put Kryll on the opponent and leave RAAM at an advantage. The problem is that Emergence does more damage and also has more advantage, giving RAAM a wider array of knockdown setups, including OTG stomps.

This might be okay if Kryll Rush ender was a surprise, but it’s not at all. Its ender animation is standard length and easy to see throughout. Thus, there’s really no reason at all to use that ender. I suggest giving his Kryll Rush ender the same treatment that was given to TJ’s advantage ender, which sped the ender up and removed/lessened its cinematics.

He can after a throw.

Not really…

His forward throw has two hits. He can only grab a chunk if the first hit doesn’t kill. If it does, he can’t.

He can’t get one off of his HKD ender or his back throw either.

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I’m not an Aganos player, just thought that’s what I saw. My bad.

I agree with this, pretty much every damage ender in the game had hard knockdown properties removed to promote alternate ender usage. I didn’t like that it got removed from Thunder’s grab ender, but the advantages to his other enders made the adjustment worth it, and his toolset is more balanced. Also, given how freely Gargos builds meter, and seems to be able to churn them out so frequently once the engine is primed, I think he should have to take more care in his pressure to keep them alive, or be forced to make decisions to sacrifice damage in order to get his 2 minion lockdown engine in play, instead of having his damage and his minions able to come into play off the same ender. If he wants minions, he should have to play an ender for the purpose, otherwise he should be happy with the damage.

I honestly can’t speak to well on the RAAM issue though, I haven’t had enough matchup experience to make an experienced call on that.

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Of course there is. Push the enemy to the corner and let him in position for command grab.

and it leaves the opponent standing without the use of a breakable LK stomp

I guess I didn’t consider the corner carry on it, which is decent at higher levels.

In regards to utility though, the HKD ender is much much stronger. It allows for safe jumps, ambiguous cross-ups, anti-backdash/jump setups, anti-DP setups, in addition to the flipout, which is the same advantage the Kryll Rush ender offers, but without a definite timing. I’ll take that large number of options over the added corner carry every time, especially when the corner carry on his damage ender is just as good.

As Gargos player, I agree about hkd+damage its too much
As Aganos player, I agree about getting time for grabing a chunk on that setups

I feel like he shouldn’t be able to summon between rounds since everyone else accidental shadow move usage at the end of the round goes away by the beginning of the round (Omens orda shields and homing balls, ect)

Also think Minions should have a timer on them… no one else has limitless shadow moves that can last an entire round or more.

Kan-Ras shadow sand pit stays the whole match until he’s hit which if used correctly could be there a while.

That’s true! Good one. I was trying to think of more of both sides of the coin but I was kind of drawing a blank.
I guess the good thing about the sand pit is it doesnt move and follow you around.

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The only thing I wish is that RAAM’s kryll enders allowed the effect to carry over between rounds like Cinder’s burnouts or Spinal/Kan-Ra’s curses. This would give you some extra utility for using one of them to end a round, forcing the opponent to try and immediately go on the offensive to get rid of it.
I imagine it would be kinda hard to balance, and the effect might need to be delayed, but it would give you a reason to go for the lower damage enders more often between rounds.

Also, Gargos being able to get a massive damage cash out AND safe minion summons is the opposite of okay. :frowning:
If it were either or, it’d be fine, but being able to get both damage AND utility AND summoning off of a hard knockdown between rounds (juggles I could understand) is a bit much.

In regards to getting “stuff” at the end of a round, it depends on the character. I think it’s totally fine for Jago to get instinct and for Cinder to get a burnout because they’re doing it within the combo. It doesn’t seem right that Gargos gets a minion and Thunder gets a dash after they finish their combo and the opponent is lying on the ground.

To be more complete, instead of letting Aganos grab a chunk after a HKD, I’d really just prefer if those two situations for Gargos and Thunder were removed… but if they’re going to be allowed free stuff, can Aganos jump on that gravy train?

I think I agree with most, if not all of this.

I’m usually finding myself defending Gargos and Friends, but in this case, you’re totally right. Damage Ender should NOT HKD, nor should he be able to get a minion off of it in between rounds. While I do think he should be able to summon at the end of a round, he should have to rely on the Juggle Ender>LP PortalxMinion route.

I don’t know Thunder well enough, but pretty much if you want an extra setup piece or resource off of your round-ending action (combo, whatever) you should have to make a choice for it. Ending a round with a HKD should be a hard-end to the round, especially considering most HKD enders do better damage than their Juggle ender counterparts, and thus will kill in situations where Juggle ender wouldn’t. I guess I’m saying Thunder SHOULD be able to stock a dash after a kill combo, but ONLY when killing with an ender that could facilitate it before the opponent touches the ground.

I don’t know enough about Aganos to really provide an opinion one way or the other. I think if HKD Enders shouldn’t be allowed to facilitate resource replenishment/summoning, nor should any HKD that ends the round. In this case, then, I guess I would be disapproving of Aganos chunking post-throw if the throw kills. It’s nothing against Aganos, just the sake of fairness. He does have a resource ender I know, but does he have an ender (specifically Juggle, but also otherwise) that facilitates the placement of a wall or grabbing of a club? If Gargos can drop a minion with KO Juggle Ender, Aggy should be allowed some setup time. Unless that would be broken as hell, but I don’t think it’d be TOO broken…? Again, I don’t know the character very well, so someone tell me if I’m talking out of my arse.

As far as RAAM goes, I think his Kryll enders are different enough functionally to be okay. Yeah, you get lots of setups off of HKD, but you get different setups off of Advantage Ender, which is important. I do agree, however, that it should get the TJ treatment. Currently it just seems to happen too slow to accomplish what it seems like it’s supposed to.

@Fwufikins I like the idea of Kryll lasting between rounds… but they probably already decided it was too good. If they were to change it, they’d probably reduce the overall damage Kryll does, which may be better, may be worse… Interesting proposition, overall though. :blue_car: