@developers I’m not really big on asking to nerf another character, especially as my own character, Sadira, has been nerfed around the world and then some (although she has gotten a few buffs that have helped). So yeah, I don’t want to ruin anybody’s party, but honestly Jago needs a bit more recovery off a blocked Shadow Wind Kick.
Of late, I’ve been fighting a lot of top Jagonites in Ranked and I’m actually becoming quite decent at not dying within a few minutes. I’m even starting to win matches. I still owe you one KyLegend40215! Revenge is coming… A Sadira can only take so many taunts before she snaps… er um… anyway… The ONE thing that annoys me more than anything in Jago’s arsenal, is the fact that he can throw out a Shadow Wind Kick and be blocked and still be positive, or at least positive enough to immediately go into a 50/50 between a throw or DP. I can always punish novice Jagos, but at higher level this becomes ridiculous.
If I have meter this isn’t an issue, I just will Shadow Counter it, but the fact is, most of the time I’m dealing with this, I don’t quite have enough to fight back. I try to throw or attack myself and I get punished for having a good defense. I can understand the extra positive frames IF Jago is in Instinct, but this isn’t the case.
I’m not asking for a big change, just make him easier to punish after a bad call. That’s all. I don’t want him to get nerfed too much, because I love using him as well.
ftr, practice mode data does claim that shadow wind kick is +1 on block, and that seems to bear out in experience. You shouldn’t be trying to take an offensive turn after blocking this move, generally speaking.
Let’s be clear here: shadow wind kick isn’t a bad call, per se, against a meterless opponent. It beats projectiles, clobbers most attempts to start anything with its high priority and fast startup (although it gives the opponent a chance to block if they weren’t committed to anything before the freeze, which is an argument for just using regular wind kick), and allows Jago to start up his pressure game on block. You could argue that there are better uses for the meter (which has become more dubious after successive nerfs to the dirt Jago used to put meter into), but it’s not bad. It’s probably a fine way to get a pressure game started on a character who lacks a meterless DP and currently doesn’t have meter, actually, maybe especially one who’s fairly likely to be airborne very soon if you don’t pin her down immediately.
To me it’s akin to calling a Jago player scrubby or YOLO for throwing out a medium wind kick, whilst simultaneously complaining about the game “supporting YOLO behaviour” by making the move safe on block. You can’t have it both ways: the wind kicker is throwing out a strong, safe move, which is anything but YOLO. You can complain that the game rewards strategies that you don’t like, but you’re definitely a scrub if you think a player who leverages those strategies is being YOLO. For all you know, a Jago player throwing out shadow wind kick on you might just be expecting you to block it.
Anyway, I think I’ll bow out. I’ve had too many scraps over Jago nerfs recently, and this particular bit of frame data is one that I’m not very attached to.
I don’t think this change shifts the needle on Jago’s strength enough to satisfy anyone who thinks Jago is too strong, though. It still concerns me that we’ll see a bunch of nerfs around the periphery which largely just make the character less comfortable to play, before whichever big change that does shift the needle happens anyway.
… let’s just remove his DP eh this point, eh?
Why single out Shadow Wind kick? Most grounded Shadows are safe on block.
I think that these sorts of changes, the mostly-irrelevant-but-make-the-character-feel-janky sort, are the only changes left to make to Jago. I don’t think the devs will actively make him WEAK, but catering to perpetual nerf beggaring will result in a character that is adequate in terms of strength but just feels like muck to play. I trust the team to know what’s best.
Unless they make it punishable, though, which they won’t, it will always contain a DP-or-not mixup ala M.Windkick. I’d rather they leave it be.
Could try backdashing it after the freeze. Pretty much gaurentees a punish…unless you backdash is complete garbo like glacius’ or worse.
Shadow windkick is +1 on block right? If that’s the case you COULD theoretically Just use shadow recluse or shadow blade demon to beat him in a trade scenario (shadow blade demon for a ground combo and out prioritize strikes) and shadow recluse to beat out the throw attempt.
If a jago attempts to DP AFTER a blocked shadow windkick then they are having a few screws lose. There’s virtually no point to ever DP after a +on block move. Since you’ll put yourself at a disadvantage in the process.
You would think… but it works. I’ve started doing it more myself after running into a couple of Killer-ranked Jago players.
It sounds more like a waste of frame advantage. I mean why bother? If they have a dp and want to dp back you’ll either trade or lose.
True, but it is usually a counter hit, which is solid, one-hit damage.
I wish more jago’s would do that for me. Would make my blocking life a little easier.
So, a few things.
First of all, this strategy is not unique to Jago. Any character with a good “guess” forward-moving shadow and a DP can do it. This includes, off the top of my head, Fulgore (who makes very good use of it), Cinder, Eyedol, Tusk, Omen (pre 3.6), and I’m sure some others. Nerfing shadow wind kick will not prevent you from having to deal with this mixup.
Secondly, the mixup has easy answers. Delayed backdash or delayed tech beats both DP and throw attempts. So I would recommend you improve your defense a little bit in these situations.
Third, as has been mentioned, it’s a okay use of Jago’s meter at best. Guess shadow wind kick, if you don’t have meter to shadow counter, is halfway decent but not a world class use of meter. Jago does end up +1, which means he doesn’t (and shouldn’t) be using DP here at all; if he does, that means he is taking a monumental risk when it is his turn, and you should be more or less happy that your opponent doesn’t do st.MK xx medium laser sword for a similar mixup and maintain frame advantage + a grounded combo starter instead.
The real situation where this is more useful is if Jago is negative but not punishable, such as after M wind kick, because then Jago needs to decide whether the guess is worth it or whether he should just defend. However, to prevent this situation, you basically have to either remove all invincibility from all DPs, or you need to make every forward traveling special move strictly unsafe on block, for all characters across the board. Neither of these options sound particularly appealing for an interesting, diverse game.
I suspect we’re having the old plus/safe/punishable terminology mixup in this thread again. OP said
Which I just took to mean that OP wants to take their offensive turn back after blocking the move. -1 or -2 or something.
I could be wrong, maybe they want it to be -5 or -6, maybe they want a button xx opener combo punish as reward for not happening to be committed to anything when the Jago threw shadow wind kick out there. I’m taking some liberties in interpreting their request, I guess.
I think this is a little up-in-the-air as of 3.6. That safe DP meter has to go somewhere, and whilst having more meter makes the now less-potent unbreakables more tempting, I can definitely see the value in making a meterless Sadira sit still for a prolonged pressuring.
As an aside I still think DP -> fireball is super good. From some ranges on some characters, jab doesn’t hit well, and for everyone else you turn what is supposed to be (but never is) a 18% unbreakable punish on your DP into, like, a 6-8% punish because of the damage lost from the jab. Also, the punish is not free, it comes very quick after shadow fireball and it’s missable by people who are surprised by a DP attempt.
So yeah I’ll probably do DP -> fireball pretty often still. Worst case, I get punished but that meter saves me 10% on average, not a bad trade.