95% of KI players online

General Discussion
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Who won the set?

Whether or not you’re “mashing” is merely a piece of a variety of factors that ultimately matter in the context of a set. If a player will not respect your options to bust out of pressure, then mashing is a fantastic strategy - Kazunoko won a Capcom Cup largely off the strength of knowing when to pull out EX upkicks. If a player in Killer Instinct proves themselves incapable of recognizing and punishing break patterns, then breaking early and often can be a great strategy as well.

The true test of thoughtfulness is in how you adapt to what your opponent is doing. In high level KI guess breaking consistently is often detrimental - the best players tend to punish incorrect breaks for 50% or more if they have the resources. If you have proper lockout confirms then guess breaking is on balance a terrible strategy, but that is because you adapt enough to slow down and punish the opponents’ mistakes accordingly. If you are not cognizant of, willing to, and capable of making that adaptation, then that is on you as a player. Complaining that the other guy is guessing or “mashing” is a failure on your part to recognize and capitalize on the inherent limitations of that strategy.

A good strategy ceases to be a good strategy the instant it is no longer effective or done in relation to the opponent actually standing in front of you. Delayed throw teching is a great strategy, until your opponent proves their preference for command grabs. Blocking is a solid choice (seriously, people should do more of it), until such time as the opponent shows their willingness to take turns that are not rightfully theirs and establish effectively endless pressure scenarios. “Solid” play is generally good, but solid play alone rarely wins tournaments. Knowing when to pull out the cheap stuff or the shenanigans (both offensively and defensively) is very often the ultimate difference maker in any game.

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And as to criticism on whether or not you DP too much, I think it’s always helpful to keep in mind this handy chart:

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How people view reversal decisions is highly dependent on where they sit at that precise moment. It is entirely possible that you are too unwilling to block and have defaulted to an unnecessarily high-risk style - but that is a determination that you need to make based on your success rate and how differently skilled players handle your tendencies. If you find yourself frequently being punished heavily for those decisions, then that is your signal that you need to make adjustments.

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Is it okay if I assume that you developed this chart? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Lol. I did not :joy:

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all that translated to was you’re mashing dp constantly because you’re scared of blocking. If you are minus, their offense is real, and mashing dp to get away from it is called playing very scared. Literally all I have to do to people that mash that hard is just walk up block repeatedly and counterbreak almost every first chance and its a free game, I don’t even have to earn an opener, just hold back and let the bad player give me one simply because they are scared.

Mashing dp only works against low to mid level players sometimes, against high level players, especially in games that reward better play, you do that once or twice and you already lost the set.

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95% of players I run into online just mash dp every time their negative, guess break the instant they get outplayed or are behind and 60% of those are running around just mashing every button they can find because that’s easier than actually learning.

There’s really only like 10 good players in KI, prolly 20-30 goodish and around 100 ok, the rest are just mashers. A lot of the people that people think are good are really terrible players that do I what described above every time I’ve played them, only a few are going to really outplay somebody.

This KI online is the most brain dead, mashiest experience I’ve ever seen in any fighter, and I’ve been playing fighters since like 89. I watch sf sometimes on twitch, and nobody ever plays like they do in this KI, like literally ever, so I have no idea what games you’re seeing but none I’ve ever seen do they mash like KI. People would rather just mash than improve, even plenty of “top” players.

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I don’t care if people play “my way”, last thing I want to do is force people to play only one way, because fighters wouldn’t be fun if everybody did that.

I don’t care if they don’t have a lot of time, not the point, point is they don’t want to learn, to them it’s only a masher, they don’t enjoy the game any more than some old random arcade game. I’m complaining about the people that play literally all the time and from launch til now, have never changed. Most of the people that play online are on a pretty fair amount, and very rarely do I see anybody TRY to improve or learn, point is this online community is basically like playing an online version of some old random arcade game.

There is a reason skilled players don’t enjoy online, it’s because of the environment the people that don’t really enjoy the game create.

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So I’m the thoughtless one If I go into ranked and see everybody doing nothing but that guy in the vid, and say hey, what the hell? Don’t think so. I always try to improve, lose almost all the time, get tbagged, taunted, triple ultra’d all the time and never said anything until recently. I could care less if I lose as long as I have fun or learn, I just can’t stand how much this community just mashes every thing they can find so they don’t have to think at all.

It’s literally impossible to get good games like that until you’re getting closer to a mid level player because you don’t learn anything from people playing like that. Point is not winning or losing, its learning and having a good experience, which is really hard to find online because of the way the community acts.

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Again, see Kazunoko’s Capcom Cup win, or more recently, see Oil King’s success in SFV (a game with extremely high punishes for blocked DP’s). A DP is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used to greater or lesser effect. Such high level players are not distinguished by some godlike patience or refusal to ever reversal, but rather by their ability to choose good spots to use them. Phenom is another SFV player characterized by his willingness to DP more than the norm - just got 2nd place last week in DR (losing only to Tokido). Mashing out a DP has its place in all levels of play; the real skill is knowing when to bring them out.

Because I actually play the games I mentioned online (with the exception of MK11, where I have watched enough Ranked and Kombat League streams to be pretty confident in my assertion). I’ve seen players mash when positive, when negative, when even on block. I’ve seen rolls and GI’s and wake up Reversal Edges against players whose ranks would suggest they know better. Random players online, in almost any game, simply don’t like to hold pressure if they think they can worm their way out of it. I don’t need to watch players streaming - I’ve seen and played against it. It’s your job as a player to disabuse them of such notions.

I never said you were thoughtless. I don’t know you, to my knowledge have never played you, and have never heard any other player mention your name. If I had to guess I’d imagine you’re a relatively solid player, but that you perhaps fluster easily or get too fixated on the “right” way to play the game. Saying things like “I did the right thing but lost anyway” means to me that you have an idea in your head of what constitutes “good” play, and that things that fall outside that realm you deem unworthy or unfair. You’ve constructed a narrative about what the game is supposed to be, instead of playing the game as it exists and adapting accordingly.

But again - I’ve never seen you play or heard tale of your matches, so it’s entirely possible that my guess is way off base :man_shrugging:t5:

And I guess here is where I am confused. So which is it? Are you crushing all these so-called mashers, or are you losing nearly every game and getting taunted and t-bagged all the time?

The funny thing is that you’ll notice I’ve never disagreed with your thesis Oki - KI genuinely does have a lot people in Ranked who just “do things” without a ton of thought behind it. I myself had a hard time learning Hitbox because people in Ranked just wouldn’t stop dying to basic stuff - I had to start asking for sets from specific people, which is what I also suggested above.

But if so much of the community is indeed mashing against you, then yeah, I tend to think that your results should entail much more of the first quote above, and the second one should almost never happen. If you are unable to effectively deal with people online in Ranked, then you are not yet at the level where “higher” forms of play are especially relevant to your growth. Part of growth as a player is learning how to shut down mashing and nuttery in all its forms, and KI has a bevy of tools to punish that kind of play incredibly hard. It doesn’t matter if you can match Bass in Top 8 if you’re not capable of making it out of your pool. You need to understand how to beat Joe Ranked, because Joe Ranked is who your first 3 matches are against in tournament for any game.

But yeah, hit people up for games. Ask Letalis for a match, or ZTrain or N1ghtslash or DevilMayCare. Ask to play against SonicDolphin’s Kim or against ItzTymeToDul’s Kan-Ra. These are all players who are more than happy to block on wakeup or hold pressure when they have to, but they’re also strong enough to utterly run you over if you yourself aren’t on point. Heck, I’d even offer to play you myself, but from previous conversations I doubt you’d have much fun playing against my Hisako :man_shrugging:t5:

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If someone sends you an email criticizing your play style it’s pretty ■■■■ certain you are beating them. No matter how many people say dumb stuff like “I beat it all the time, it’s just annoying” they are not wasting their time on the internet complaining about all the noobs they beat.

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Hehe that’s the funny bit. We never played, instead I played someone who was streaming while he watched. All the same, I won.

Nevertheless, I spent some time watching high-leveled KI matches including yours and PaulB’s. One thing I noticed was how someone could easily take some of what you and Paul were doing as mashing. However, because of the commentary you provided throughout, we were able to understand your rationalization for what you did. I found that maybe someone might even consider “mashing” as poking.

Back to the point though. Regarding blatant and obvious mashing. I asked myself if we can even consider mashing a viable option? There are a few moments in KI where it certain is, but I wanted to refer specifically to your statement, “A good strategy ceases to be a good strategy the instant it is no longer effective or done in relation to the opponent actually standing in front of you.“

I find this true to all FGs and especially true to KI. Yes, mashing can be bothersome and be a means of “pushing buttons” constantly. However, in some places it helps negate the opponent’s offense. Take for instance Cinder’s trailblazer or Kim’s dragon cancel dash. Mashing lights may seem obnoxious, but they are effective and a viable option, especially if the player can juggle afterwards.

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I don’t know man, it worked well enough to earn a star I guess, and I faced some pretty good competition :sunglasses:

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This is a pet peeve so I will point out this often stated and often overlooked truism - ALL games reward better play of that particular game. By definition.

But what people (including you) are so often complaining about is that a game (KI) doesn’t reward your version of idealized fighting game gameplay. You complain about aspects of the game (“mash” breaking) because they don’t fit with your idea of idealized fighting gameplay. But KI is a game about breaking combos. It’s a fundamental aspect of the gameplay. Yeah, it makes the game and it’s priorities for play different than games without breaks. But it really bugs me when people suggest that a game like KI is flawed because it doesn’t reward good play of Street Fighter.

Lol. Then go play SF. KI is not SF and any player who thinks you should play KI as if you are playing SF is going to lose. Because they are playing the wrong game.

If you play chess as a good checkers player and lose no one says “man, they need to fix this chess game so that it rewards good play.”

No. Maybe he’s “mashing” DP because it’s working. This is another case of bass ackward logic. “What you are doing to beat me is the wrong thing and you shouldn’t do it.” Nope. Whatever he’s doing that’s beating you is, by definition, the right thing to do. Because it’s beating you. “Yeah but that won’t work against higher level players.” This is the equivalent of “my dad could beat up your dad.” Let those players worry about destroying his “bad habits.” You just worry about him beating you. Or your friend. Or whom ever it is you seem to feel so offended on their behalf that @oTigerSpirit is wrecking with his wake up DP. But I can tell you, I have been playing fighting games as long as anybody. In SF 2, blocking is king. In the new Samurai Showdown blocking is OP tech - solid blocking is everything. But in KI if you sit and block all day you will eventually get mixed by the dirty offense that every single character possesses. So wake up DP isn’t just a yolo thing that’s going to get you punished. It’s a necessary piece of your toolbox because if you don’t have it as a credible threat your opponent is going to demolish you. Wake up DP in KI is fundamentally different than wake up DP in SF.

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For the record if he’s fighting me with wulf i ain’t respecting ■■■■ since I don’t have to with Raam.

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Far as the op goes, some people thrive off of playing chaotic. Others thrive off of being more passive. It’s up to you to beat either style. When I run into a lot of Jago players they don’t want to stop doing dps on wake up. Which simply is a bad idea vs who I play so I blow them up for it. When their dp fails they try to back dash or hold up and I blow them up for that too. It ain’t up to them to stop doing what they’re doing it’s up to you. And if they want to keep doing it then keep blowing them up for it. This isn’t just a ki specific thing either. I run into plenty of people in sfv or mk who want to do anything but block. I just kill them for it And move on.

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don’t know how to do these multiple quotes so ill use numbers.

  1. Yes it does happen sometimes in other games but in KI they get rewarded for it a lot more, being able to dp off anything, which is terrible game design, and being able to guess break out of the huge punish you should automatically eat if you’re playing that bad.

Yes, its KI but another terrible decision, making breakers mashable, encouraged this play in people who don’t like to think, in the original KI you had to know what you were breaking and mashing really screwed up the timing of back forward button strength, so it didn’t happen much.

Also, in SF it happens occaisionally but not that much, the players that have the most success are the most fundamental ones, the mashers usually only win a few over the games span whereas the fundamental players are the ones with all the trophies.

  1. I never said you shouldn’t dp, but actually know what you’re doing and why in specific spots instead of just mashing it because you’re scared. I’m not talking about basic things like refusal to not press buttons on wakeup or actually block, I’m talking about seeing constant half screen dps, dps after blocked jump ins, and not coincidentally, after the punish, ofc insta guess break. In this KI they’re afraid to do anything where they aren’t mashing, and many will never block, in other games they learn pretty quick, here, it just continues.

And the game does everything it can to encourage this toxic play, and its toxic because nobody learns the game from it, I guarantee you many new players who come into this online leave faster than they came because of how terrible of an environment it is for learning, not to mention the constant rude players. If you think it’s a good idea to support by not calling it out, then you’re not understanding that’s what helped foster this online in the first place.

It’s not about me punishing it or not, like I said I don’t care if i win or lose, I’m here to learn and have fun, and nobody with a brain is doing either in this online because of the people you play against, including people with 20-30 plus stars still literally only mash and have no clue what they’re actually doing. When they’re doing everything I’ve said and you see constant jabs and random buttons coming out full screen, they’re playing like the guy in the vid.

And if you think it’s good to support high ranked players playing like that by not calling it out, it will never get better. And all the new skilled players that ever entered the game probably left as fast as they came.

  1. I’m actually still pretty bad, however, there’s been endless killers of high rank and down to bronze where all I do is literally sweep on wakeup, block their dp on wakeup and spam counter breaker and they never block and eat the counter breaker every time, no matter how many games in a row they lose to the same brain dead stuff. I don’t even have to earn ins against most KI players, they literally just give it to me every time.

Sweep, sweep, sweep, eat dp. Opener, guess break, opener counter break, walk up, block dp opener, counter break, walk up, block, game. That’s how most KI games go, and its 0 fun for anybody trying to learn, because there was no actual interaction to learn from, simply mash counter break and walk up block after they refuse to block and eat free wakeups everytime, not fun in the least. I don’t to do any remotely fancy setups, anything of any skill at all, just walk up sweep til dp, then walk up block after counter breaker all match and its game, really fun.

  1. Yep, it shouldn’t happen, but I’m far from a mid level player anyways. In the arcades, most people blocked, and learned as fast as they could, and everybody helped each other, because money and respect was on the line, any of the nonsense you see online was curbed real quick. I 100% know that no other online fighter comes close to mashing as hard as this KI does, sure others mash somewhat, but nothing close to this game.

I still have trouble becoming as brain dead as most of online because I always think, they can’t be this dumb, and am constantly proven wrong. When I first learned the game from the lab, I had a lot of fancy setups because I really only had time to start to learn it come around s3 so I figured I was way behind, and I really needed to get my skills up.

Yeah i’d mix some people up a lot, and I noticed I played a lot better against good players than bad ones. So I’ve been trying to become more brain dead and just do basic setups and press more buttons on their wakeup, and I win a lot more now, its ridiculous how easy it is to beat people with no brain, but to do that you have to train yourself to think as stupid as they do, which is none at all, and that is not fun for anybody to do. I literally have to become worse to get better at KI, that is the reality of it, it’s backasswards as hell.

There’s people that have been playing fighters longer than me, like Watson or valle, and me longer than you, there’s always a bigger fish. Blocking is always the best skill to learn in fighters, Ki is like mvc2, you block until you earn your punish and most of the time you don’t even have to do that, they will panic and give it to you much earlier than otherwise, and all you have to do is learn to block better, its a skill, its hard in KI and mvc2.

I used to play mvc2 against the best in the world during its heyday in the arcades for 2-3 years, and blocking then was still king, because a lot of times if you got opened up once, your whole team was gone and because walk up block + assist would eat your fear spam dp if you played that way, and then you’d lose your whole team for nothing.

This KI is the same, to me wulf and shago are probably the hardest to block, and if you learn to, pretty quickly you earn a punish, its also pretty blatant who likes to mash grab because they can’t get in, and you can quickly abuse that too, because most people don’t think, they just repeat the same thing over and over. Mashing out a dp a lot or even somewhat conistently because you’re too scared to block is the hallmark of giving in to bad habits and most people that do that will never become fundamental players, they can’t get past this “blocking is scary” notion.

In a game with so much cool tech and crazy combos, becoming a better player by becoming more brain dead is a terrible environment, and no good players want to join that environment, maybe some have the nerve to put up with such nonsense while learning, but most will just say this is trash, and move on. With so many better communities(not better fighters, still believe KI in high level play is the best), why would a good player put themselves through that just to reach something that is pretty rare in this game? Most won’t, and will justifiably move on to any of the other number of fighters out there where its a much better environment to enjoy and learn in.

The reason KI has gotten like this is because people foster bad play and encourage it, and its the reason the community has stayed so toxic and most of the good players in the game are the ones that were there in the beginning, because I’m sure there’s plenty of other good players from other games that came here and simply didn’t want to deal with the nonsense this community fosters.

Its not about me learning to get better, that’s a personal thing I always try to do even when I’m getting beat down constantly, i don’t just get mad and scared and mash dp and guess break, I try to learn what I’m doing wrong and improve. It’s about what this community has become because people support mashers and what that’s done to kill its growth.

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This isn’t true at all. There was a very easy way to make breaking easy in the old games.

Kazunoko, nemo, ceroblast, all successful players known for being a little wild.

Code is just one of many examples of how this isn’t true. New players join the discord and stick around.

Most of the game’s strongest players have moved on to other things.

Also in no fighter ever is ranked a good judge of ability. I’m only super diamond in sfv yet before stopped playing ranked in that game I would regularly beat grand master players and above. If you want to get better in any game ranked isn’t the place I do it. Pro stars don’t mean much in ki at this point. They just show you play a lot more than anything.

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Also when I go to events and talk to other players, many hold ki in high regard. The biggest reason to this day that kept people back was due to it being Xbox exclusive for a long time. People still don’t know about it being on pc since it wasn’t advertised heavily.

The other big reason is simply it’s too late to learn it while they focus on other games.

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Simply highlight text and a quote button will pop up. Press it, and it will auto-populate the quote into your reply box.

I’ll reply to the rest of your post when I get some time.

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  1. actually there wasn’t, even the mashers couldn’t do it nearly like they do on here, maybe like 1/3rd of the success rate as they do here, I was there, I know.

  2. I didn’t say they weren’t successful, I said they weren’t nearly as successful as the fundamental players.

  3. I don’t know about “many”, very few good players in ranked or elsewhere, as you said, most have left the game, guess there wasn’t enough money anymore…

  4. Never said ranked was a good judge of ability, I just asked people to try to learn the game and not turn it into the worst possible way to learn the game, it is that at least until you get some skill under your belt to see what others are doing. Yes I know stars mean nothing, plenty of the guys with the most stars still do nothing but mash.

KI is still the best at high level play, however most don’t care to get there because of the environment. I probably will just drop ranked for about a year and a half and just lab and play with a few good players I know sometimes, all I’m saying is the environment of it sucks and its really the only way new players know of to learn and nobody plays exhibition anymore so, its definitely not good for growth.