I think cinder definitely needs some kind of buffs.
And now I have two best friends.
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Are you TRYING to make me have a heart attack!?
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Did I interpret that wrong?
i think raamās emergence should become an opener.
Which one is that? I played him a while, but I didnāt bother to really learn the names of the moves.
the standing move with the kryll
i also rarely play him because i find raam weak. i think he lacks openers. although he can do his follow ups with the steps and the grabs he could be more punishing if emergence was an opener or a recapture.
Loll you want a meterless invulnerable starter for a grappler? XD come on, nowā¦
Also, cinder buffs? Iād say he needs to be nerfed a bit, right now. Probably tone down his shadow Cash out damage, if they want to keep his burning enders intact, or reduce the PD build up on the enders by a notch or two.
Seriously, though, I can see jagoās overhead getting a bit nerfed, maybe? Although what I really think should happen is his double endokuken in instinct should build even less meter on block and his shadow endokuken should be about - 6 on block. Make those two changes and I wonāt ask for a windkick nerf.
No, he barely puts out any damage even with that Shadow cashout ender. He is the lowest damage character next to Shadow Jago and Kilgore. His burnout enders and his PD moves were hit hard after the PD patch changes, which Iām grateful for, but at the same time, it impacted his gameplay a good bit, especially since he no longer generates nearly as much meter as he did before Inferno was nerfed. Given his low priority and unsafe specials, his short reach and slower startup normals, general low damage without burnout assistance, and DP that tends to trade way too often than and gets low profiled very easily, Iād say nerfs are a no.
His damage is extremely dependent on strategies to tack on PD and cashing out. Most characters can reliably get around 60% with two meter stocks and a lockout, where Cinder canāt even get above 45% reliably under the same conditions. Iām having to accept a combo to get a burnout ender that gives around 15-18% damage to add on a burnout, but then I have to initiate a second combo very soon thereafter, try not to get combo broken again, and hopefully have meter to get the best damage possible which probably will amount to around 55%. There are lots of less setup intensive characters who can gain that damage in a single combo, sometimes with only a single stock, but Cinder has to risk two combos, a low damage ender, and work fast to get an opportunity to cash in before the PD heals to get the same kind of damage.
I would say heās been nerfed hard enough.[quote=āYperdaimonios, post:28, topic:19414, full:trueā]
i also rarely play him because i find raam weak. i think he lacks openers. although he can do his follow ups with the steps and the grabs he could be more punishing if emergence was an opener or a recapture.
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I played RAAM a good bit, but I would say donāt trade that good reversal move for a simple opener. When used correctly, itās good damage, given you can keep the Kryll cloud stuck to them for a while, but at the very least, itās a good āget off meā move, and I wouldnāt trade that for anything.
RAAM isnāt weak though, but his offense isnāt that straightforward. Really though, when you get his offense going, heās a monster. If you corner your opponent and use his stomps and setups just right, you can shave health bars in seconds with UNBREAKABLE grab damage that constantly piles up. Yeah, his traditional combos are good damage too, but Iād say you will really want to get that grab mixup game going in the corner for your good damage. Heās got everything he needs.
Also, donāt forget his FADC style move that staggers on hit and adds a Kryll cloud on the opponent. Itāll give you an opener opportunity as well. It doesnāt count as an opener, it just makes getting into the traditional combo easier. Itās a useful tool I find a lot of RAAM players underestimate, cause once I learned to use it, it made for some tricky offense. Itās a great attack.
Man, cinder and mira were the two characters, IMO, that really came out on top when it comes to the recent PD changes.
Cinderās burnout enders became much more dangerous now that the breaker in the 2nd opening you get isnāt nearly as significant.
You get a burnout ender and you really mess with your opponent now. It honestly makes cinder a whole other monster. I really believe that his shadow cashout is a bit out of control, since these changes, and I love the character and love watch inglĆŖs him being played.
Converting a stray air to air into a one chance to break manual hit into 45+% dmg is something I see happening a lot. Between his burnout enders and the amount of PD his shadow inferno dishes out on block, he gets lvl5 shadow cashout quite easily now. Iād say it warrants a nerf to the dmg of his shadow cashout, IMO.
I take it you donāt play AS Cinder very much, or see how difficult it is to set up that opportunity. Itās not as easy as it looks, and you have to be on your best game to convert stray hits with juggles and opportunities. Iād say that kind of damage is justified, especially since a lot of characters, Maya especially can get that kind of damage plus in a single combo, and have several hard to break juggles.
Youāre looking at what the character can do, but until you try to do it yourself, and try to mess with the setups, and feel the work you have to put in to make the damage happen, it simply looks easy.
I used to think Gargos was too easy to win with and could be mindlessly carefree with his offense, but after playing a lot as him, I have a newfound respect for the Gargos players that make that offense work. Itās NOT as easy as it looks, ever.
Oh, but I donāt mean it doesnāt take effort. By easy I meant it happens very often, in the hands of an experienced cinder player. The fact it takes skill to do doesnāt mean it canāt be a bit too good either, skill shouldnāt factor into tiers.
Iām not saying heās broken or anything. Just saying I think the shadow cashout he can get off of juggles is a bit too damaging with the way PD works now, IMO. Any juggle is a one chance to break manual into ender with one meter, and itās not rare at all for cinder to have juggle opportunities. Itās not rare at all for him to get good PD on his opponent either, ridiculous amounts of PD sometimes, and thatās the way heās built to work. But with breakers not being hardly as punishing as they used to be for him, I think itās a bit too much dmg off of the shadow fireflash.
RAAMās Shadow Emergence sucks, that definitively needs a buff, the description says itās invulnerable yet it gets stuffed in active frames by Tuskās Sword, Hisakoās HP, Thunderās Jumping HP, Gargos Oblivion LP, and basically any attack whose hitbox can reach him, granted it needs to be a large hitbox but still.
I ve seen his Shadow emergence hitbox flash on and off while it goes and the regular version does not, so i blame this for him taking these hits.
Here is another thing RAAMās stabs will be eaten entirely by Arbiterās shield as if they were a projectile, he can pull the shield and even if you Shadow Stab will be left frustrated as the 5 stabs do 0 damage. Emergence will be eaten too but i guess that is expected.
Edit: I am told this is how this one should be.
I think i had more on the āRAAAMās list of things that should work but donātā but i tend to forget things rather quickly.
Iāve never had a problem with Shadow Emergence, but I have seen it get stuffed by other things even though itās supposed to be invincible. I have more of a problem with l.Emergence. It just seems a little too tricky to pull off reliably. It could use a bigger hitbox or something like that.
Yes, please!
All I need is the return of dagger throw on Mayaās shadow leap kick.
Oh, and a huge nerf on Gargos.
Okay, this one is easier to talk about so Iāll hit it first. Shadow Emergence is very unusual for an invincible reversal. First, the full invincible thing isnāt really accurate, as he is throw vulnerable for a large portion of the moveās startup. He has a 5 frame startup period before the screen freeze that can be interrupted by a grab, and a 10 frame startup after screen freeze to be interrupted by a grab as well. However, on the 10th frame of Shadow Emergence post screen freeze, the first attack frame of the move comes out.
Shadow Emergence is split into 5 projectile hits, but only the first hit is strike invulnerable. Upon the moment the second frame starts, he is again vulnerable. The misleading thing about the move is in the training mode command list, it says āinvulnerability until recoveryā, but should really be just strike invulnerable on startup.
So the thing is, red attack boxes only interact with red attack boxes, and green projectile boxes only interact with other projectile boxes. You also have the fact that the move on whiff cause the five hits of the attack to fly by more quickly than on hit or block. The spacing and timing on this move are tricky, but itās a useful tool if you are cornered, most jump ins will lose to it unless you time it too early, because on whiff, RAAM becomes vulnerable again faster, and the projectiles come and go faster. Itās best NOT to use this one on jump ins, but when you are next to the enemy and you know they are going for the meaty.
Iād say itās doing itās job, as it saved me a lot online, but you have to use it carefully like all reversal style moves.
And it losing to Gargos Oblivion LP makes sense too. Unless you time it to interact with the projectile hitbox itself, Oblivion is gonna probably hit on recovery frames.
Yes, this is how it should be, though I tested this one, and depending on the attack the shield is only capable of withstanding 1 to 3 hits. Oddly enough, Shadow Decimation takes about all 5 to wittle away the sheild, but it counts as 1 move split into 5 parts so take that as you will, but Arbiter is still in hit or block stun state when he gets hit with shield. Almost any heavy move destroys the shield in one hit, and standing MP into light decimation will destroy the shield too. Iāve not seen much in RAAMās arsenal that takes 5 hits to drain the shield. I even used Shadow Emergence standing next to Arbiter in reaction to his shield power up, and Shadow Emergence destroys the shield on the three hits and keeps juggling for the final two, so you can use it on reaction to negate Arbiterās shield and even bypass the knockback of the move too, if timed correctly.
Itās literally his only big damage move, and if you nerf the damage on it, there is almost no reason to use it. Unless the burnout is active on an opponent, even a level 4, non-shadow ender cashes out smaller than usual damage, as the ender animation is designed to take advantage of the growing PD during the cashout animation. Simply building it on there and then using a non-shadow cashout isnāt that great, and he also has to spend several combos, lots of meter by keeping pressure with Shadow Inferno, and breaking through what will most likely be a retreating opponent on high alert to actually get a chance at that good cashout.
It may not be rare to see him get juggles all that much, but itās rare to see all the elements of that perfect storm come together for that sweet cashout. Itās his best damage, but the work it takes to make it happen, and the sacrifice of the timing, resources, and setups has to be worth it, and if you decrease that damage, thereās almost no reason to bother with it at all.
Itās already -6 on block.
And Cinder is very strong right now. Citing his low priority and stubby normals is a bit of a canard, since against a Cinder who knows what heās doing heās almost never using those moves without having already stuck you with a pyre bomb. Once you have a bomb on you, you have to hold all that.
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Of course thereās reason to bother with it. Itād be his go to ender for juggles even if it did less damage than his other enders, simply for the fact that it cashes out from a juggle hit with no need to recapture.
The big bulk of cinderās damage, as it stands, will always come from juggle cash outs. Every grounded combo, optimally, will be ended with a burnout ender unless youāre already getting the kill or the wall bounce nets a very good mixup that you can potentially kill off of. And with this, you put your opponent in a devastating situation, where any opening you get next, from literally any touch you land on your opponent, has the potential to get you a very big cash out from a one chance to break manual.
Itās not rare at all for cinder to put his opponent in this situation, and once he does, thereās a miriad of options from which he can cash out giving his opponentās a single guess break attempt. Even his throw leads to a really deadly mixup in this situation, with oki than can range from a meaty fission (not sure if this is the name for the move where he claps his hands in an explosion), a meaty sweep or a meaty throw, all of which lead to a one chance to break cashout thanks to the pyrobomb that he can place right next to the opponent after the throw, that will OTG.
There are various option to balance this out:
- reduce damage on shadow fireflash ender to make his juggle cash out less devastating, and increase by a bit the dmg on his juggle and wall bounce enders to make up for it
- reduce PD build up on his burnout enders (I donāt really like this option)
- make it so fanning the flames while burnout is in effect doesnāt make so much of a difference. As it stands, burnout enders are really really strong, IMO, because they either limit your opponentās option very harshly by forcing him to not use kicks or punches, or they generate A LOT of PD thatās now really hard to get rid of. Make it so fanning the flames just generate an added amount of PD on the spot, instead of extending the duration of the burnout ender, for example, would be an option.
Of all of these, IMO, the one that changes the less about the character is simply reducing the dmg he can get off of juggle cashouts, and it seems that most fair, IMO.
Anyway, weāve trailled off topic quite a bit with this, and it wasnāt my intention. Regarding Jagoās balancing, I believe heāll either get a slight nerf to his windkick or to his overhead, or alternatively Iād like him to get a bit of a nerf to his instinct FBās shadow meter gain on block.
@STORM179 really? =O I thought it was something like -4. Well, Iāll be damned, Iāve really gotta get more in touch with KI. Been too absent, it seems xD thanks for the heads up!