You can do any strength manual after opener, but are limited on manuals after linkers.
HL -> LM / MM / HM
ML -> LM / MM
LL -> LM
So, if you do medium laser linker, for example, you can only follow it up with a medium or light manual.
A general rule if thumb: if the manual exceeds the strength of the previous linker, then it won’t work. Instead, you’ll either get a combo reset or auto-double, dependent upon your timing. This limitation on manuals helps make them somewhat more predictable and easy to break, so long as you’re paying attention, since you can’t react to them (they’re simply too fast - by the time you see it, you’re too late to break).
Also the fact that you can use any strength manual after opener discourages early breaking and guess breaking, so sometimes it’s simply best to wait to break - you’ll take more damage, but will have a better concept of your opponent’s combo patterns. Naturally, this also encourages longer, more damaging combos over shorter combos with one chance breaks since you can easily lockout early break attempts.
Fun fact: manuals aren’t limited to standing LP/LK/MP/MK/HP/HK. You can even use crouching or command normals as manuals.
I’m sorry to ask redundant questions I know I saw the formula somewhere once but I don’t know where to look and just woke up and I’m hoping to jump into practice for my manuals asap…
What’s the formula for reading frame data to know if a manual is possible?
…Also isn’t the frame data still slightly off? I gathered that much from reading old posts, dunno if it was ever fixed…
Thank you for this. Do you know if can I do safe combo resets using this? I mean, press a strong button on purpose to reset and then continue the combo for more potential damage?
That probably won’t work as most people are blocking even if you’re doing a combo so your attempted reset would get blocked almost guaranteed.
I suggest doing a light punch manual and then reset the combo by going for a low or an overhead normal or special.
You also have to watch your timing when you do this as if you time it wrong you’ll either get nothing but a dropped combo(when you try to do a normal) or another linker (when you go for a special move reset).
Assuming the frame data is accurate, I’m just going to give an imaginary example right now. Let’s say Jago’s light laser sword has 4 frames of advantage on hit. That means manuals that have a start up of 4 frames or less can combo but if the start up is more, you can’t combo with a manual.
Whoa there - you’re forgetting the 5f manual cancel window!
@Slaughternautt To determine whether or not a manual is possible, take the on-hit advantage of your opener and add five; any normal whose startup is equal to or less than the sum will connect.
Yes, a fair bit of frame data is incorrect, but it is relatively rare that they have adjusted button startups and opener hit advantages, so you this formula should work just fine.
It’s the same as the manual cancel window applied to linkers - you are allowed to cancel the last 5f of an opener or linker into your manual. Not much else to it, it’s just helpful to know when looking for opener>manual sequences.
Wonderful, thank you. Can you elaborate on one thing please? Explain how many frames I would have to land the manual?
For example if the startup of a normal is equal to the hit advantage + 5f of an opener’s frames what’s that leave? Like 1 frame to land the hit?
Or to use a real example with Fulgore. His LP is 3f on advantage and his L laser is 12f on startup, therefore, 3 + 5 = 8 leaves me a 4f window to land a LP manual?
However I was complaining that I couldn’t land a manual after his blade dash. So a L blade dash is 7f startup, but again the LP with the 5f manual window comes to 8f… so was I correct that it’s impossible?
Those are all lights though… a fully charged heavy blade dash is 6 on advantage + 5f is 11f. And all his normals would work then as long as it’s a fully charged heavy dash. Although his HK is 11 on startup which puts me back in the first example I used where the startup is the same number as the advantage + 5f.
Sorry for the jumble of questions here, I just very much want to completely understand this.
I think you might be thinking of it sorta backwards? To determine the advantage necessary to land a given manual from an opener (X), you wanna take the advantage of the opener (Y) and add 5, so:
X=Y+5
The startup of your manual must be less than or equal to X-1 (remember that KI frame data doesn’t include the first active frame in it’s startup).
A real world Fulgore example:
L.Laser: Y=5, so (X-1) </=9
Any manual whose startup is 9 (becomes active on fr.10) will connect. For Fulgore, this is almost any button - you can even manual sweep at 8f:
L.Laser>cr.HKxHP>juggle
Incorrect, you just need to practice the timing. It’s sooner than it looks. In the case of LK Blade Dash:
L.Dash: Y=2, so (X-1) </=6, therefore:
L.Dash>LP manual>ender is true.
chg.L.Dash: Y=4, so (X-1) </=8, therefore:
chg.L.Dash>cr.HKxHP>juggle is true.
All strings were tested by hand to make sure the data wasn’t off, they all connect.
So I’m in practice applying what you’ve said. Indeed, L.Laser is 5 frames on advantage, so of course add 5f for the manual window minus the 1 is 9 like you said. And then e.g., LP is 4f on startup which </=9 therefore that is possible. Let me ask then, since the difference there is 5f does that mean anything? And for a hypothetical, although this real example had a difference of 5f, what if it had a difference of 6f which exceeds the 5f manual window? Do those frames beyond 5 not count? Therefore in any circumstance, however the math plays out, I’d have between 1 and 5 frames to execute a manual?
Okay, so that’s the logic of it, now I do unfortunately have a second and third question for you…
chg.L.Dash does = 4f, but regular L.Dash for me is 2f not 0 like you said. Am I missing something or was that just a typo on your part?
Finally, could you elaborate on the logic of how Killer Instinct doesn’t include first active frames and however that would manifest in frame data I’d be looking at in the future?
Thanks so much, this information is invaluable for me!
It’s not that difficult. Just add 5 then compare two numbers to see which is bigger.
The difference is simply just the amount of time you have to input the manual. So in your example where you have 9 frames of advantage and you do a 4 frame LP, that means you have a 5 frame window to input the LP and it’ll still connect. If the number exceed 6 it doesn’t matter, it just means you have a bigger window. So hypothetically lets say you have an opener with 15 frames of advantage, then you have a 10 frame window to input your LP. On the opposite end if you only have 5 frames of advantage and you try a LP manual you’ll need to hit it on exactly the right frame since you only have a 1 frame window.
Sith explained the usefulness of “extra” advantage rather adequately, I’d say - just makes stuff easier.
Ohsnap, that’s my error. Corrected the original post. Sorry!
That does suggest that L.Dash>st.MPxx should work, but for the life of me I couldn’t get the MP to come out, so I’m uncomfortable adjusting the example string. If a Fulgore player can confirm…?
Including the first active frame in a moves listed startup is the most common method of transcription, and how most frame data you come across for other games will be transcribed. This means that for most games, a -3 move will be punishable by a move w/ a listed startup value of 3, because its first active will be frame 3 according to this method.
The logic behind NOT doing it that way? Couldn’t tell ya. You get used to it after a while, but ya never stop wishing they’d make it easier.
Fulgore’s manual timing for both blade dash and laser are roughly the same. The only thing you won’t be doing is many heavy manuals as he only has punch. My forum name is my GT we can play this weekend and work on some manuals if you like.
How many times have we talked about this. Don’t make me flag your post. 
