Does anyone know if there is some kind of strategy guide for meaty attacks? Like, a list of KI’s characters, what meatys they have and what other characters are most effected by such moves? I know that jago’s c.mk is a good meaty against riptor but that’s it, I don’t know any other meaty attacks besides that one.
Go into training mode, turn on attack data, and look for moves with many active frames or multiple fast hits.
I think this is a great question. It leads to getting good (not faking it) at fighting games. It’s part of the broader issue of jargon and definitions. “Meaty” gets thrown around a lot, but not ever defined. You are just supposed to know or infer what it means.
My best understanding is that a “meaty” isn’t a special characteristic, it’s a move where you can initiate the move so that it is active while the opponent is still on the ground (invincible and immobile) and that it will remain active until after the character is back to neutral (no longer invincible and immobile). The effect being that unless they perform a first frame invincible move (buffered from when they were invincible and immobile) or a block on the first frame when they return to neutral, the “meaty” will hit them. Therefore, as @DEClimax says, any move that has lots of active frames can be used as a meaty attack because you can reliably start the active frames before the opponent recovers and continue to be active until their first frame after recover. Theoretically, any move can be used as a meaty, but you want long active frames so it can be reliable.
Anybody have a different definition, or something to add?
3 Likes
“Meaty” is a move timed to connect with the opponent during it’s late active frames. The benefit is that by connecting late, you can improve the amount of hit/blockstun inflicted on the opponent, which can allow for better/different followups. The “extra” stun frames occur because moves (hits of move) tend to inflict a set amount of stun-frames, but are calculated with the assumption that a move is connecting on it’s first active frame. By connecting later in your active frames, you reduce the amount of frames which you must animate through relative to the stun-frames.
NON-SPECIFIC EXAMPLE:
A move with 3actv.frames and 20recv.frames is +2 on block, assuming it connects on actv.frame 1. This amounts to 24 frames of blockstun.
If this move connects on actv.frame 3, it is +4. It still inflicts 24 frames of blockstun, but does not inflict them until 2 frames later.
The misunderstanding that “meaty” must involve an opponents wake-up is a by-product of wake-up being the easiest and most consistent means of assuring that you will connect late (with timing) in your active frames. It is possible to space moves to connect meaty in neutral, though less common, and generally more difficult (due to the variables imposed by a moving opponent).
More active frames = greater potential differential and/or timing leniency. It is even possible to gain frame advantage from slightly negative or even moves depending on the amount of active frames. In the above example, if we replace +2 with -1, by connecting on the 3rd actv.frame you would actually be +1.
ON TOPIC: I have no idea how to go about faking being good… though, I guess abusing lack of MU knowledge can go a long way. And if the existence of a “guess break everything meta” is to be believed, Opener>Counterbreak should go a long way in making a person seem like mindreading genius. A lot of what I’ve read seems less like faking being good, and more like steps along the road to being good. Though, I guess it’s the culmination of incorporating them in aggregate (versus relying on any one technique as a crutch) that would be the polygraph.
2 Likes
Thanks for both the definition and response to the topic. EDIT: your definition reconciles with the fact that a “meaty” jump in or cross up (usually because the landing cancels later recovery frames) is a thing.
I think you are largely right, in the “fake it 'til you make it” sense. Many of these suggestions are just truly good strategies for online play - and that’s great. But there is an element in some of these where they will work in a best of three with a stranger but not in a long set or if someone has a chance to watch you play a few matches and understand your tools. I was also trying to encourage the discussion of low hanging fruit rather than some fundamental truths about getting good - like put in hours, lab up situational moves, play long sets against good players, learn matchups, study everyone’s ADs, manuals, juggles and resets etc. All of that is really solid advice and 100% necessary if you want to win the KI cup. But I’m trying to encourage people to share things that may not help you win tournaments but will be good returns at the lower levels of play where many of us (i.e. Me) actually live.
1 Like
No worries! Learning and sharing esoteric knowledge is my favorite part of fighting games, so I tend to jump at either opportunity.
Due to technical difficulties, I don’t actually play KI online (and lately, not really at all aside from labbing stuff here and there), so I don’t really have any sort of specific input to provide here. I may know and understand a fair deal, but I acknowledge many a weakness as a player (especially poor reactions/thoughtspeed and a tendency to panic-break, which is the same as the notorious “guessbreak” with context), and will cop to likely existing in the “lower levels” - but due my unfamiliarity with the online environment, I don’t know what players are acclimated to and what they aren’t.
In SF4, I played (mostly) Cody. By the time I got into the game (towards the end of it’s life, whatever was before USF4), there was plenty of resources available to help learn the character - which helped to inform me of the general populations perspective and expectations when they play against a Cody. I knew his frame-trap game was off the hook, and everyone else did too, but at first I didn’t have the practice to time a lot of them correctly, and was insecure about going for them in a match. So, instead, I spent a lot of time coasting on players expectations of frame-traps, and going for tick-throws off of all sorts of stuff. Pretty much, if they blocked a button, I was gonna micro-walk>throw. And it worked! It worked for what I felt like was actually too long… so I was netting wins, but I wasn’t actually playing well or improving with my character. It took months for me break myself of it (free wins are addictive, be careful folks) and actually grind for improvement, but I eventually did, and I think toward the end I was playing a pretty alright Cody.
That’s my low-hanging fruit story.
It’s a little embarrassing to read it back to myself. 
EDIT: Y’know, something like that would probably work in KI if a character is met with similar public perspective (i.e. “just block it out”).
1 Like
Something like that would definitely work in KI, and I highly recommend doing it. Good play has nothing to do with being fancy with frame traps or elegant setups - it has to do with hitting your opponent for more damage than they hit you in 99 KI seconds. Subverting expectations of offense is a big part of that. If you’re conditioned to block, I will throw you. If you’re conditioned to jump, I will strike you. Whenever your opponent is expecting something, do your best to surprise them. 
Taken from another thread, this is what I generally mean by “meaty”.
Meaty - an attack that is out (active) as an opponent is getting up. Basically, they stand up into an attack, and unless they try an invincible reversal (like a DP) whatever they do will get hit before it can come out.
I think this is probably the most “standard” definition of a meaty attack, and is what most people mean when they say to meaty someone.
@VladKravich There is no comprehensive guide on what meaties to use in KI, largely because any button can be timed to hit meaty. Moves that have less active frames are harder to hit meaty though, because you have to time them more perfectly. They also tend to not be character specific - if Jago’s st.MK is a good meaty against Riptor (it is), then it’s a good meaty against the rest of the cast. If you want a list of which buttons or attacks are good meaties, then simply asking that question in any of the character sub-forums should give you some ideas.
2 Likes
-
“Play Jago/Gargos/Rash”
-
“Give yourself a ‘sponsor’: xDKx (da killas), XxXb (Xavier’s Xtreme Xbox boi), SE (Samurai Emu’s), o’s (oTiger’s, oDragon’s, o’Brien’s), etc.”
-
“Claim your uncle’s cousin’s best friend’s brother made KI”
-
“Say you 10-0’d @STORM179 and @KevBones10 at the same time”.
-
“Delete the game because it was ‘too easy’”
9 Likes
Now the question is, can meaties be countered, like is there a way around them? I’v been in SO MANY matches were people with different characters specially orchid and sabrewulf get me with meaties for an entire match with seemingly no way to counter. So bad that I’ve put my controller on my desk and let the opponents win such matches because it seems almost impossible to do anything.
Block and invincible reversals beat meaties.
They get their pressure and you navigate your way out of it, or you wake-up with a DP.
1 Like
Yeah, you counter meaties with block on wake up. It’s very simple but people always want to hit buttons in wake up. Don’t. Just block.
3 Likes
What they said^^ Block on wakeup. Perhaps a backdash if they’re not being particularly “science-y” in how they’re meatying you.
Learning to sit still and block on wakeup will make you a much better player. Half of my game is predicated on punishing people for always trying to do something as they’re getting up.
1 Like
I see what you did there…
3 Likes
Like a DP?
Yeah, like a DP. Just be judicious with their use, of course.
1 Like
Lol at how the last few posts transpired:
“Just block”
“Just block”
“Just block or DP”
“Ok, I’ll DP!”
9 Likes
I Spam Rash tongue everywhere on the screen until i find an opening. People can get very angry because of that. LoL.
Meaties are fun. They are particularly fun with Aganos, since they have special rules.
For example, against Jago, if I knock him down near to the corner, I could go for meaty HK. Possible outcomes:
-He blocks. I use L. payload assault(a low), and jump into HK. Hard to block High/low mixup which on hit leads to wallsplat(so once I land, manual into combo)
-He doesn’t block. Wallsplat, manual into combo
-He DPs. Chunk gives me armor, so I win(which is pretty unique!)
-He shadow DPs. I’m screwed. Avoid meaty agaisnt Jago with meter XD
My suggestion to actually improve it’s learn two meaty setups, ideally covering multiple scenarios. For example with Glacius, you can use Hail to make your meaty safe. Example on knockdown:
-Summon Hail, hold it
-Perform a meaty
-On block, cancel the meaty into L. shatter, release Hail
If timed right:
-The shatter will hit first, and since it’s unblockable, you are in
-If the opponent jumps, the hail will stop them during pre-jump frames, and the shatter will hit them after the hail, so you are also in
-Backdash are fished by the Hail, which can be confirmed into ice lance
-DPs would win the meaty, but probably will be hit by the Hail, so at least you can recover fast and maybe be at advantage
About the “faking” being good(and actually becoming good), another example:
Some information that your opponent gives helps you a lot figuring out their skill. One capital example is the use of throws as default punish
For example on SF4, blocking a DP or landing a Focus attack leaves your opponent open for a combo. And most people chooses to use a regular throw as punishment. This was very sub-optimal, since you could land better damage with optimal combos, instead a throw, which are low damaging punishments, compared to this combos
This is also true on KI. Blocking a DP, or punishing a failed CB attempt… A throw is usually a bad choice. There are characters who get more from a throw(Sadira launches into combo, Aganos can use it for a guaranteed Chunk if he doesn’t want to get broken in a combo and needs one, Jago can follow up a throw with shadow moves…), but overall it’s not the best choice.
If you can punish your opponent, you have to know and mechanically execute a particular combo which deals the maximum amount of unbreakable damage. Example:
As Kan-Ra, your opponent DPs and you block it:
-Back HP, HK, L. Clutch, Antlion(regular breakable combo starts here)
-Back HP, HK, L. Clutch, L. Scorpion Sting(lauchs fullscreen, curses, sand trap still avaible)
So, I don’t know what is the best punish as Glacius, but probably will be HP/HK into cold slouder, or(with meter) HP/HK into shadow could slouder, instead of default throw(which can be useful on the corner, but still not the best default option)
3 Likes
Sometimes I like to use the chicken tactic:
- Against Jago’s instinct just run away to the other side of screen an make him waste all his rage into blocked fireballs, if he tries to approach, run to the other side as fast as you can and block the fireballs again.
- Against Thunder’s instinct run away like there is no tomorrow, when he approaches run to the other side. Keep running until his instinct is over, then, throw projectiles on him.
- Against Mira run away the entire round to force her to use life then all you need to do is hit 1 combo. Try the same in the second round and you can win the match.
Any riptor players here?
By the title, I mean that players with little to no skill can win easily with riptor. Can someone give an analysis of this fight?