That’s the thing though - I don’t actually think this is true to be honest. Even at high level I’ve found that a mix of command grab and anti-jump out resets works really well. I do think instinct TK’d ORZ’s are probably the better pure damage option if you aren’t confident in your read/conditioning on them for a reset, but there’s an amount of setup and time required there that can also make this prohibitive I think. I feel “optimal” Hisako play will probably utilize both - the air-ORZ shenanigans when the opportunity presents itself, but also liberal use of her other options in instinct. Pure TK ORZ->stagger combos take up too much instinct time to be her best option in a lot of situations.
I use it quite a bit, but only in the corner. After I do a wall splat, if I anticipate them to jump I’ll do the heavy On Ryu Zan into air light punch for the flip out. Now if I fight someone who jumps non stop, instead of doing a ground mix up after they land from the flip out. I’ll just do the On Ryu Zan again but do the Shadow air On Ryu Zan because they’ll more than likely break the air light punch. It’s a great punish for people who don’t respect Hisakos corner pressure.
That moment when you realize that you can just use a frame-stepped replay of a local match to illustrate hitboxes…
Here are the hitboxes for all versions of air-ORZ, performed as TK’s in the corner. You can see how they conform more or less to the above descriptions that I gave.
Shadow air-ORZ’s hitbox is a bit deceptive, as it is seen when zoomed-in from the shadow activation effect. You can tell from the width of Jago’s yellow “presence” box that we are still zoomed in, even here on the last active frame of the move. I am pretty sure that heavy air-ORZ’s hitbox is slightly larger in comparison.
Holy moly, I love this thread.
I really only use this for a wrathless recapture and as STORM mentioned, in the corner after wall-splat as an addition to the mix-up suite. I would likewise classify this option as “OK but not amazing”.
lol @ heavy ORZ’s hitbox
Might as well just make it the whole screen at that point.
Lol. That’s a lot of hitbox. No wonder I get hit from Space fighting you @STORM179. Seriously. XD
Lol. In her defense, that move’s got 27 frames of startup. It’s not like you can really use it in neutral. It’s pretty much an oki or instinct-only move.
After combo breaker this year I think I’m done with KI and Hisako. I’ve put in wayy too much time and effort into her just to keep coming up short. The shadow air ryo zan is damn near useless, she has no launcher ender, minimal juggles, among other things… Maybe I’m just salty now but seeing characters with safe dps, unpunishable openers, and endless pressure tools just makes me want more for our ghost girl, she has to work way too hard for combos and setup. Ok rant over.
Meh. While I do think that Hisako is a character who takes a lot of work, I very much do not think she is in any way underpowered, not even at high level. I thought this was true in S2, and I think it’s even more true now in S3. She doesn’t need more juggles, a launcher ender, or even a DP (which would make her broken) - she’s a very, very good character in her own right. Good meterless damage, great reset potential, and a really good combo trait as well.
She does take work, and she’s not Top 5 or anything, but Hisako is a monster of a character when played well. I can definitely sympathize with the struggle (cause damn, she does take work), but she’s really good.
You’re definitely free to switch characters (or even quit KI, though of course we’d prefer you to stay ) if you feel like it’s not worth it or you’re not having fun. But felt like I had to defend my girl
I think I’m gonna stay with her, I just had a bad night in ranked and was ready to drop her. But things got better today, when she is on, She is very hard to beat. Back to the topic of the thread I use to only use the shadow air ryo zan as a recap after wallsplat ender-juggle with heavy on ryo zan, linker then and ender, but that was hardly worth the meter since it’s so easy to break. I also wish it was projectile invulnerable. It would crush glacius shadow hail
Me too. That would give it quite a few more MU specific uses. It honestly seems like it should be.
Really? That seems like a super specific property to wish for. Just about the only situation where this would be useful would be against Glacius. It doesn’t have much “travel” to it and is fairly slow, so it’s not like you’d ever use this in any neutral situation to blow through a projectile - you’d just use shadow ORZ instead. Regular air-ORZ clears most fireballs easily enough, so I don’t think this would be much of a buff at all.
Now if you wanted to buff the move’s post-flash startup…THAT would be a buff worth talking about.
Hmm. We’ve got Sadira and Kan-Ra who like to toss projectiles in the air, seems like those would be MUs might benefit from it as well.
Or it could just be one of those “hey the grounded version is projectile invincible so my brain expects the air version to be too” kind of things.
I can see it being useful in the Sadira MU as a hardcore punish to widow’s bites, but I don’t think she needs it against Kan. That “one aerial action per jump” nerf means that if he’s putting up a scarab in the air, you should be using descent to get behind him and punish, or at the very least force him to get defensive again at a range he’d prefer you not to be in.
Yeah I can agree with that - if Kan were to spit scarabs at you in an air-to-air situation, then the projectile invulnerability would definitely come in handy. Same with Sadira’s shadow projectile - though oddly, I’ve beaten that on reaction with Shadow Air-ORZ, probably due to a difference in startup frames.
It would also be helpful against fulgores that pop hype beam on jump. It would decrease some of the damage she takes.
So after grinding some 300 odd matches over the past month, I think I’ve come to some very definite conclusions about the utility of shadow air-ORZ. Long story short, it doesn’t suck, and is actually an effective reset and conditioning tool. Its use is pretty particular though, so you definitely won’t be spamming it anytime you get meter.
I personally found that its best use is in the corner after wall splat situations, particularly against characters without DP’s. It’s basically a Hisako-specific reset to punish throw techs, backdashes, and jump outs by the opponent after you wall splat them. Any of these actions will result in an immediate recapture (with the grounded punishes also staggering) that gives you a nicely delayed manual opportunity to also bait a timing lockout. A good corner sequence of combo->wall splat->shadow air-ORZ can have an opponent eating 80% or more in very quick succession if they manage to get themselves locked out early.
Just as useful, eating that kind of damage also serves as a potent conditioning tool on your opponent, encouraging them to sit still and block high the next time you wall splat them. And this option is punishable by either a heavy influence or cr.MK->rekka reset.
Downsides to the shadow air-ORZ in the corner is that the blasted thing is -12 on block, so if you run into that rare individual who does nothing after wall splat you’re going to be eating a punish. For that reason, if you have full wrath after your wall splat, I recommend going into TK’d light air-ORZ instead - you get the same mixup (caveat that it might be backdashable, but this is an unlikely reaction in the corner), but can also do an influence tick grab if the opponent happens to block. As discussed previously, the damage differential between the two isn’t actually that different (shadow version adds some more PD I believe), so you won’t be missing out on much. The shadow air-ORZ reset is also obviously DP-able, though it does make some of the more angled DP’s actually whiff, allowing you to full punish as you land.
So there, that’s what I found out about shadow air-ORZ. It’s a good if situational move, and a good default option to use in the corner after wall splats. I didn’t personally find much utility in converting anti-airs into combos with it, but that’s probably more my own preference than anything else. But anyways, hope everyone can take this knowledge and go out there and have fun. And of course, if you think of any additional uses for Hisako’s least-used special, post it right here.