Cool, I’ll start tagging you in the thread after this weekend’s session. Looking forward to playing with you!
Thanks for explaining your thoughts on Cinder’s DP. I started to write a long response with character reversals and damage breakdowns and such, but instead I’ll simply say that I think your core problem is that you’re kinda comparing fireflash to the wrong tools.
Is fireflash really similar to Jago’s DP? Or is it in practice more akin to Maya’s leap kick or Wulf’s eclipse or yes, Shago’s DP? Are those tools fully invincible for the most part? Shago’s is and he certainly has more control over when to proc his utility features, but his damage is similarly lacking and that utility also requires meter that he might prefer to use for enhanced pressure or a shadow cashout or something. Glay’s light puddle isn’t fully invincible, and all versions of his DP die super hard to safejumps and are easy to force out wrong side. Eyedol only has access to his DP half the time, Tusk can straight-up be thrown on several of his, etc etc. Most of the KI cast does not have a Jago-style damaging, invincible DP, and the utility reversals in particular tend to have gaps, costs, or limits in addition to just out and out not being invul.
I get that you want Fireflash to be more damaging, more invincible, etc. But it isn’t. Its unique mix of properties (more invincible than most utility reversals, but not completely invincible) means it certainly has some unique interactions, but all of those interactions are consistent based on its properties, and frankly you shouldn’t ever be surprised at how a given situation turns out after playing the character for a long time.
Track down some footage of Tyzo or MitchIsCinder or Illusion (might be going by Trevward now 
). There’s no need to reinvent the wheel - see how they construct their frame traps and pull from that as your base.
Cinder’s medium punch in 3rd degree goes quite far, and KI backdashes are only invul for 7 frames. You control the timing and options of 3rd degree…that means you control where it’s true and where the gap to even mash out a backdash is, and when you control the gaps it means you can punish attempts to exploit them. While it might be possible for a super obnoxious backdash like Shago’s to get away, the vast majority of the cast has to play your game here.
Again, maximizing this is going to take work/understanding on your part. You need to be able to pattern and read opponents to know when they’re going to flinch with a backdash versus when they’re going to flinch with a DP, and you need to know when they’re going to hold it so you can throw or otherwise steal turns.
I went in and tried this with Cinder after reading your response. The window can be tight if Gargos does medium/heavy PP->light PP, but Cinder can dash block between all versions and permutations of portal punch pressure. Just practice it. The other versions of PP pressure shouldn’t be threatening at all, because the slower startup of medium and heavy PP means you’ve a full 20+ frames after your dash to see that Gargos is winding up again. It’s not a race, so just take your time and don’t try to rush with multiple dashes…you’ll walk him to the corner eventually, and then the goal is just to punish him trying to escape it.
You shouldn’t be trying to set up pyre bombs in neutral for the most part in this MU. Do it when Gargos is in the air and you can get away with it, but overall don’t expect to be able to reliably keep one on him. This MU is defined by your ability to slowly close the vice on Gargos, not on trying to bully him like you do other characters. He can’t run away effectively if you aren’t taking unnecessary damage on approach and gifting him a life lead…PP does hardly any chip, so eventually he has to approach if you’re up on life.
Did not know either of these, I may have to look up some stuff on this, and maybe how to…utilize this.
I’m actually willing to trade the damage if it meant it could be stuff a little less by the things it shouldn’t be. If it meant there weren’t moves that could commonly stuff it so well, I could live with the tradeoff. But…
…This kinda explains the situation to the very point we’re at, and I suppose even Jago has his surprise interactions to those who use him often. And with the game in a finished state, no sense in hoping for any kind of change and it’s better to adapt to what it can do.
I will, but I would also like to try to understand how to get in the mindset of discovering your own tools more easily, as I would like to carry this over from game to game as needed. Someday, if the fabled PS5 ever becomes more easily available, I would kinda like to try GG Strive, and I would like to take what I’ve learned and start using it to develop my own useful tools and plays for that game, or any I approach in general. I feel there is value in having that knowledge as well, rather than trying to just copy and learn from other players.
Don’t get me wrong, “it it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” works, and if someone has already done the work of finding something out, save yourself time and effort by all means. However, being able to do your own research and discover on your own is also something key I think should be as critical a skill, although for some people, where and how to begin on that can be difficult. I suppose it’s something I’ve been working out, and sometimes struggle with still.
Also hoping for a FighterZ sequel with rollback and a not garbage lobby system. Don’t know why ArcSystem needs to reinvent the wheel on that one every new game.
I thought it was 8? Well, minor nitpick and trivial in the larger point of your argument.
Something I did not consider before, as I’ve used 3rd degree for much different uses.
And it was mostly those rare obnoxious backdashes I’m thinking of will miss, like Shadow Jago, S.Hisako, Cinder mirror. However, I have used 3rd degree a lot to know, the hitboxes on some of those attacks are kinda high, and have high profiled some characters randomly. It’s not like TJ’s speed bag punches where after the first hit it gets a nice height gain on the attack box, I have had 3rd whiff RARELY on crouching characters, or at least ones with lowered hurtboxes on attack. Wulf comes to mind on that one…
For me, I’ve always believed in trying to get an early lead on Gargos as best you can. It sort of helps in setting the pace a bit and controlling him. I will try and practice more of the dash blocking though, since my attempts haven’t yielded much fruit. Playing patient is one thing I have hard time with though in this matchup. Patient I can do in most of them, but Gargos is the one that gets me kinda nervous. I guess a mental block I have to overcome.
I don’t do this anymore, and haven’t in a long time. It’s way too risky and easy to get nailed for.
For another bit on something to discuss, what’s your take on spending shadow meter for damage enders? I understand it’s the only method of cashing out PD on juggle combos, but for a grounded combo, I have tested this and usually see that for two similar combos, one being ended with a lv 4 damage ender (say fireflash), and one being ended with a shadow damage ender (shadow Fireflash), you only see about an extra 4-6% damage (no burnouts active). I test this with other characters and usually, a grounded combo ended with a shadow damage ender usually doesn’t yield huge differences.
There are always exceptions to the rules, as RAAM easily proves that point, but my conclusion thus far is unless it can end a match or round, the extra small percentage (for most characters) you get for expending that meter doesn’t seem worth it, especially when you have a character like Cinder built around utility of his moves rather than pure damage. Why spend that meter on a grounded damage ender when you may need it for a shadow counter, juggle cash out, Shadow Fissure for chip damage, projectile invincible opener, etc.
The purpose of copying another player’s tricks isn’t solely to drop-in their knowledge into your gameplan. Rather, incorporating someone else’s tools will give you a framework to subsequently ask “why does this work?” and “how did this differ from what I was doing before?” You certainly can lift setups and never give them any thought, but more importantly you can use lifted setups as a framework to think about the game, pressure, and defense.
Right now the idea of frame trapping offense seems foreign-ish to you. You have no framework to work in and understand how to use ambiguous-frame situations to elicit damage. Stealing others’ work in this area can help provide that framework, and from that foundation you’ll begin to better understand how to incorporate similar learnings into any character and any game.
The growth and development of your own strategies will flow eventually, but you need a skeleton to build on for that process to really be effective. Pulling techniques from other players doesn’t have to stifle such growth…I’ve used it in my own FG journey to help accelerate it.
If it will kill or force an opponent to only get 1 instinct, always spend the meter. If it will turn “2 touches to kill” to “1 touch to kill”, then probably spend the meter. If it won’t do either, then save the meter.
Generally you should be prioritizing the setup and future state instead of trying to eke out an extra 5% damage. Cinder in particular thrives on shadow cashouts and PD, so your bar is usually much better spent on that than on a grounded shadow ender.
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Case in point. I’ve been really wanting to play Strive lately, so just randomly started trying to find more Giovanna footage and came across a Kazunoko (Gio) vs Xyzzy (Axl) FT10. The set is super good, but there were a few setups in particular that Kaz started using midway through that really got me to thinking.
For the entire first half of the set he’s using variations of jump over opponent->backwards airdash->j.K, which is a cross-up button. But then he tosses out jump over opponent->backwards airdash->j.H (which doesn’t cross-up)->throw. It’s a moment where you can just see the opponent go “huh? 
” and then eat the throw. Repeatedly. Because Kazunoko just spent 5 games putting a button there, Xyzzy can see that a button is out there now, but now it’s turned into a whiff button->throw setup. And then Kazunoko starts swapping between the two, and his opponent starts getting tagged by cross-ups that weren’t coming close to touching him previously.
I’m absolutely going to steal that whiff button->throw setup, but now I’m also thinking about how I can use whiffs like that in other situations, and how I can mix it up even more by doing cross-up->airdash cancel->throw or cross-up->airdash cancel->empty low. Watching Kazunoko’s Giovanna has given me at least 5 other setups that I want to try now, because he gave me a framework to explore in a knockdown situation I previously hadn’t even considered.
Don’t be afraid to use other players’ stuff…as long as you consider why these things work, you’ll naturally progress to trying to figure out how to make your own stuff work.
The set I watched if anyone’s interested:
I feel the same way, and I tend to ask those questions fairly often. I had a college professor pretty much drill the thought process of solving problems into us, not just to solve the problems he presented us with, like using formulas, rules, known derivatives and other tools, to arrive at the conclusion, but to understand the whole problem. Breaking the problem down into its components and trying to understand and solve the problem using a process of learning and evolving our knowledge, not just lifting a technique and arriving at a solution for that type of problem.
That always stuck with me, and I take his lessons with me where ever I tend to go, in whatever endeavor I undertake. You can’t solve a problem you don’t fully understand, and if you don’t understand the steps to arrive at the answer, you really didn’t learn anything, you basically copied the answer out of the back of the book. It may work for a situation, but you didn’t figure anything out and what little benefit it is to you is weak.
So that’s why I tend to put emphasis on not just trying to copy someone else’s tech, but learning how to use it and break it down on my own, and try to learn from it. I don’t have a problem in using someone else’s work they did and applying it (with proper citation and credit), but I do care to understand it more deeply than the surface level is all.
I understand the concept of frame traps, but I’ve never really made heavy use of them, except to maybe bait and punish Rufus dive kicks. As such, I’ve never really used a character before Cinder that made such heavy use of them. So I suppose I should begin to develop this part of the meta I have left undeveloped for all this time. Most other characters I’ve used have had some small frame trap style tactics, namely RAAM can really mess you up with well timed normals, but to have them as such a larger part of the gameplan is definitely not what I’m used to, and why I may have trouble controlling the match like I need to be.
Rarely do I get that kind of situation where the extra 4-6% can end a match or lifebar, which is mostly why I tend to prioritize the use of meter on utility and setup. I don’t really like any kind of shadow linkers, and prefer something like converting Fired-Up Inferno into a combo from almost full screen safely, chipping them to death with Shadow Fissure, momentum turns with shadow counters, cashout on juggle combos, etc.
At some point, I hope to play Strive too. That may be a while off though.
I did watch an interesting video though recently, where you and s0undy had a first to 10, Hisako v Cinder. It was interesting to watch, but I can’t help but feel like he dropped a lot of combos and I also really am not very taken with bomb loops. It needs a lot of resources IMO that I feel are better used in other ways, and I just feel like the damage for it doesn’t exist. Unless there’s already a good chunk of PD built up, the damage you get off it raw seems very low, with the only advantage being it’s usually a one-chance break. That’s also a good 10-15 seconds of your instinct mode put to use in a juggle that’s not getting much damage, and at least one bar of meter to cash out, and a second possibly to juggle with shadow bomb, although you can substitute that with a second fireflash.
I feel instinct offers much more like scoring conversions off fired-up moves, and gaining some frame advantage off your enhanced abilities, as well as building large amounts of PD and saving yourself from possible shadow counters. Timed correctly, it’s also a good corner escape, and the aerial activation property of it makes it even more useful than most instinct modes.
He has some interesting combo videos though I hope to learn from, especially using bomb throws off jumping normals, he did one where you can tag a bomb off a jump in and still keep the grounded combo, though it may be a bit easy to break if they see it coming. Some interesting ideas.
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Ever since the hacking of the ranked mode, I lost my killer rank and have been trying to regain it. Today alone I grinded 5 hours to get to the killer rank promotion match. I reached the threshold three times, and three times, I lose the promotion match, and that loss from the promotion match hurts every time. I’ll play and easily beat most gold players I encounter, but then at the promotion, I encounter people with absurd numbers of gold stars and it’s just a mess.
At every turn I’m reminded that Cinder is an inferior character to the rest of the cast. I know no two characters are meant to be built the same, but to everyone who says Cinder is just built different, and takes a different style…no, just no. Cinder’s moveset is not just different, the sum of the parts isn’t very good at all for competitive play. I’ve lost my patience and I’m ready to drop him. He was fairly well balanced within the context of the first two seasons, but season 3 and beyond introduced buffs and new mechanics to almost all the other characters than made them beastly while Cinder only ever seemed to grow weaker by comparison.
Over time, I’ll be practicing and moving away from him as he is just too flawed. He’s got too many matchups where he’s at the disadvantage, and his moves are beaten in ways that it’s almost like many of the characters were practically designed to counter his best advantages. I’ve seen the flash kick (his invincible reversal move) either trade or flat out lose to specials and even normals, like Jago’s forward+HK double kick move. IT LOSES TO THAT NORMAL, and the times it trades, it almost always trades but still favors the opponent to where they don’t even launch and are back at neutral while he is knocked down. Cinder’s only reliable reversal is the metered Fireflash, but he’s such a meter heavy character, it’s hard to justify spending meter just for him to have an actual working invincible reversal. I’m really kind of wanting to make a montage of it, especially if I ever manage to get an Elgato card or something.
It’s just infuriating when most characters can do in one combo and no meter what Cinder does in two or more and spending some meter, when his supposedly invincible reversal fails miserable and can be safe jumped and the auto correct honestly does not work correctly, as I’ve flash kicked in the wrong direction many times. Honestly convinced it doesn’t actually auto correct direction at all.
Cinder requires a great deal more effort and thought, and has little room for error at all. I’ve had so many matches where the effort of multiple setups, combos, adding white damage and sticking the opponent ruined, and cost me too many matches. I’ve just had enough.
I understand if this seems like venting because honestly, it is to an extent. But years of experience using almost solely this character and it seems like he’s just not well equipped to deal with much of what you will contend with online in competition, and so I’m ready to change it up to maximize my advantage, even if that means a character change.
Do what you gotta do homie 