A complete exposé on counter breakers: why they work, why they don't, and what you can do

Well, sure, trying to catch someone on a reaction break only to whiff a counter breaker because they locked out trying to guess break and you didn’t have time to react is a thing, definitely.

What I’ve generally said against this, is that the preceding guess break is very infrequent (and correspondingly counter-breaking here is basically irrational if you do the math, but I digress), and you should be letting most of your auto doubles (~3 in every 4) play out as well, so actual legitimate “you opted to counter-break at the wrong decision point” situations are pretty rare, and to my mind don’t qualitatively change the risk-reward decision involved in opting for a counter breaker. I see what you’re getting at with the misalignment of intentions, but I guess I’m inclined to take the pragmatic line and cast that objection into the same wastebucket wherein reside such FGC sacred cows as “if I read a DP I should get a guaranteed punish.”

I understand what you are saying here, and we may just have to agree to disagree. But how many frames occur between the breaker input and breaker execution? Zero (0). And you have absolutely no visual indication at all that the move is coming. So, it’s not like being late with a counter breaker is like being late with a DP to hit an air attack at all. I don’t see this as the same. In the DP case you can see the opponent coming and you know how much time you have. For a CB you don’t get a lead in. You just have to guess. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to say you didn’t guess correctly that your opponent would break and got in one frame late so here, you deserve a full punish.

No one is asking for reactable breakers. Just reducing the risk (and aggravation) of getting killed for being 1 frame late on an impossible to predict instant action that the opponent can make - sometimes anywhere in a 20-40 frame window.

This happens in my favor as much or more than it hurts me. And every time it happens I feel “sorry dude, I know that sucks” while I hammer the guy.

I think this is just one of those things where it sets up a situation where it’s driving everyone crazy.

I’ve accepted that we won’t see any additional buffer for the Counter to come 1-5 frames late (except the one we have for manuals - which to my mind torpedoes completely the suggestion that it’s like a late DP - why is this one buffer okay?). But I still like @Fnrslvr’s suggestion to have disallow counters during timing lockouts. Just have them either do a medium auto, or return to neutral like throw tech.

https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/g8pp.mp4

1… 2… 3… Counter Breaker? #KeitsPlease

I’m actually practicing it myself. gona be real handy.

that’s rollback, not a counterbreaker error

This has been in the game since Season 1, and it’s a quirk of the system, fully reproducible offline if you have a few minutes in training mode. Let me explain.

Combo breakers actually have 5 frames of startup. It’s almost always a non-issue, because combo breakers are unblockable and it’s just there for, like… aesthetic purposes I think. Anyway, it’s a quirk that Double Helix put in the game, for better or for worse. You guys have probably seen this when you instinct cancel something and the guy tries to break on the same frame. The freeze frame of instinct happens and you see the guy is already in the combo breaker pose during the super freeze, then when you come out of the freeze frame, you still get hit even though you could block.

This is exactly the same scenario happening with counter breakers. It happens if you break the 3rd hit on the exact same frame as your counter breaker. Basically, all it means is that the game prioritizes counter breakers over combo breakers, should they happen on the same frame, but because the game audio plays the “3!” audio clip also on the same frame as the break attempt (for obvious reasons), you still hear it. I mean, I suppose they could maybe fix this weird behavior by killing any “1, 2, 3” audio files if a counter breaker lands, but the interaction is still the same.

Here’s some video to illustrate my point.

I recorded a clip of Raam doing a short combo into shadow stab, then trying to counter break “right on” the 3rd hit. Then I took control of P1 and broke the first three hits, trying to sliiiightly vary the timing on the 3rd breaker hit so line up either slightly before, slightly after, or right on the same frame as the counter breaker.

If you are slightly AFTER the counter breaker, I probably don’t have to show you video of that. The guy just counter breaks as you would expect.

If you break one frame BEFORE the counter breaker input, take a look at what happens:

http://gfycat.com/HeartfeltEnragedAmericanwarmblood

It looks like the combo breaker actually locks the opponents inputs out, so the game will simply not apply the counter breaker attempt if it happens after a combo breaker. This also makes sense, right? Your break beat the counter breaker attempt (even by just 1 frame), so it comes first and therefore succeeds. The game plays its aesthetic 5 frame animation but it has decided the break wins.

What happens if you break ON THE SAME FRAME as the counter breaker?

http://gfycat.com/AmusingPlasticHyrax

The counter breaker beats the “input lock”, but the breaker is also accepted because the 3 audio clip is played. The game decides that the counter breaker wins 4 frames later when the breaker tries to make contact (maybe this is why there is startup on breakers?). So you end up with this weird “tie” that is awarded to the counter breaker.

This will only ever happen if you input it on the exact same frame, though, which sometimes might happen because of rollback but also sometimes might happen offline. I think it’s very rare, because as the person doing the counter breaking, you tend to want to be early to catch all break timings (ie, if you are going to counter break the 3rd hit here, you will probably do it right before the 3rd hit connects, not after).

But yeah, there you go. They could fix the interaction if they cared by counter breakers killing all existing breaker audio, but maybe that’s hard (I dunno) and it happens so rarely that I don’t think it matters at all. Just know that if it happens, the two actions happened on the same frame and the counter breaker wins.

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Yeah, this has been in the game since S1. It’s pretty rare, but I’ve seen it enough that I’m not terribly surprised when it does happen.

As for my thoughts on the questions above, I’ll give a more in-depth reply a bit later. Mostly I’m pretty hesitant to give counter breakers “bailouts” for being late, except in the case of the 5 frame input buffer for manuals (and only then because you can’t counter break startup of manuals and it turns counter breaking in those cases into 1 frame link tries, which is silly; the same thing isn’t true of autos/linkers/shadows so I don’t think the buffer is needed there. If counter breakers have to come first, the game has to give me a “reasonable chance” to be first, and 1 frame is not a reasonable chance in my mind).

After a little more thought, I’m less and less a fan of #2 myself. A few counter-arguments:

  • It implicitly widens the counter breaker window, which might allow you to, say, show 10 frames of a medium auto double before laying down a counter breaker that covers frames 5 to 30, which…is kinda the whole thing. Early-ish guess breaks, later reaction breaks, etc. There may be a little wriggle room either side for a breaker to sneak through, but in practical terms I don’t know…
    I guess you could shorten the catch window after activation to compensate (and implicitly detach it from blockstun or something?), but that’s not a positive change to me.
  • You’ll still be able to counter-break one frame too late, and it’ll still feel just as raw when you do. If there’s a 5 frame window after the breaker and PaulB breaks on frame 6, he’s still going to claim that he had the read and put ■■■■ on the game over it. I don’t even know for sure that you’d notice the leniency in actual play, but I could be wrong.

Yes, your second point is something I would have brought up in my post.

No amount of extending the break window is going to remove the possibility that you simply counter break 1 frame too late from… whenever you set it. And it won’t feel any better, but all you’ve done is introduce several other potential problems, like not allowing breaks to occur on the last 5 frames of auto-doubles (let’s say you focus really hard and react to a light auto-double, but your break is delayed in order to allow counter breakers… is it successful here, or not? When the opponent tries to predict that you will NOT react to the light auto-double, and instead you will guess break the linker after it, he inputs his counter breaker after the auto-double and catches you, despite having a pretty wrong read.

It’s kind of just shifting the problem elsewhere without actually solving the thesis, which is “it’s frustrating to be very slightly late on counter breakers”. But I think people need to understand that missing small windows in fighting games is part of how the games work. Nobody in S1/S2 seemed to have a problem with missing counter breaks by 1f during autos/linkers, but now it seems to be the world’s most broken thing.

I have other comments to make on some of the other stuff, maybe I’ll feel better and post something later.

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I’ve had numerous instances where I’ll see my opponent trying to break my shadow linker, so I’ll counter-break, as I hear (and see) the 1…, 2…, and still get broken despite the fact that I already put in the counter-breaker prior to, and never hearing (or even seeing), the 3… Can you explain that for me please? It’s 1 of the few issues that still bothers me in regards to counter-breakers.

Display lag/input delay? (EDIT: oh, never saw or heard the “THREE”? Nevermind.)

I don’t really understand the question or would have to see a video example of it.

Wow, really? I thought I made it pretty clear, but, um, okay… I’ll see if I can get a clip. :expressionless:

I think the 1,2,3 count sounds are frequently the victim of rollback, especially for the faster shadows. I frequently get broken without hearing the 3 out loud. As far as the counter, it’s just a too late input but it looks like you got in on time due to latency/rollback.

It’s not just the sound though - I often don’t even see the 3rd flash. Whenever I shadow break an opponent successfully, I see all 3 flashes and THEN the actual break…

… Well, based on my previous response maybe you can guess why you don’t see the flash… Could it also be rollback?

Possibly, but in many of the matches where this happens there are no (other) telltale signs of lag or rollback.

The combo breaker animation is all of 6 frames (approx.) so it’s one of the things that you might notice being affected when nothing else seems like it is.

just perfect thank you for posting this