I cordially invite any outsiders that think this game is YOLO to have a go at my Hisako.
She eats YOLO for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
At any rate, I find it odd to call the game YOLO based on its pace, and I think @CrazyLCD is right in that people are too quick to judge something they know little to nothing about. The pace of a game is a lot like the pace of a song… you either like fast things, or you don’t. Calling something like Paganini or Dillinger Escape Plan “YOLO” based on its tempo would be foolish; there are complex arrangements at play, and your inability to recognize that is indicative of little else but your ability to comprehend complexity at high speeds.
Not much to disagree with here, although I admit I’m getting a little tired of these “people say…” posts.
I think people are wrongly attributing the decreased emphasis on footsies to IG. It was DH who dropped Spinal and Fulgore. It’s tough to have micro battles around spacing when the opponent is teleporting all over the place.
It’s also a misconception that if its not footsies it’s YOLO. Frankly, for me the whole discussion highlights the immaturity that is rampant in the FGC rather than anything about KI. No one can just like what they like. They have to try and run down the games they don’t play.
Which is part of a greater dialogue on elitism in consumer mindset. A la Console Wars, people assert that their choice to consume or enjoy one product over another somehow makes them greater than the person that chose to consume or enjoy the alternative product. Which is totally bizarre but ubiquitous.
I’m so tired of this discussion and these comparisons. Listen fighting games play different from one another. Play what you like and be done with it.
That said some of these arguments are extremely shallow. Guess breaking particular I find completely ridiculous. Are you going to tell me that SF4 and MKX do not have unsafe mixups? Or certain characters in those games don’t have unreactable oki? Guessing happens in fighting games that just the way it is, in a lot of cases it’s that luck or consistently making good reads (being in your opponents head) that make the game fun. At least in KI a guess break just resets you to neutral (save for some instinct cancel shenanigans) where as in other games tiers are literally determined because x character cannot be played viably due to having unsafe mixups that result in full combo punishes.
I will say in regards to being “YOLO”, if that were truly the case I don’t think we’d see consistent placing with so many top players.
LCD is preaching to the choir here. Not much else to say.
Those people complaining about KI seemingly don’t play the game, so they are decenters from the outside. Every scene has them. They do / will keep SOME people from playing the game, but LCD already said it, new players are always on the rise, so yeah.
This is just par for the course. It’s annoying, but inevitable.
I used to set console SF games (well any FG) to max speed setting.
Even though we’ll prove neutral game imbalances, it’s all about the Combo/Counter Breaker system.
Too many are afraid of the Yomi-game where 1 or 2 break oppourtunities make everyone’s heart beat intensely. They like the knowledge of perfect plays resulting in predictable outcomes…
They need to study Bruce Lee’s philosophy on fighting more
I do enjoy watching you play @CrazyLCD , please, promote this attitude as you continue.
I can’t add anything to the discussion that hasn’t already been said. I disagree with KI being a “YOLO” mentality game, and believe LCD’s comments are well said. It mostly stems from unfair comparisons to other games within the fighting genre and a general unwillingness to adapt to the tactics you need to learn in order to play this from any other game.
Yeah, this thread is basically summarized by the first post.
If you judge a game by the standards of another game, of course it’s going to seem inferior. If you’re scoring game based on how it compares to Street Fighter, for example, any game that isn’t Street Fighter is going to lose, because non-SF games are designed differently from SF games, even if they’re developed by the same company (look at the difference between Street Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom).
The key is to find what different games do differently from one another and determine their value based on those differences based on personal preference. Street Fighter is more defensive and footsy based, Killer Instinct is more offensive pressure and special based, Mortal Kombat is more ground bounce and throw based, Tekken is mostly strafe and chain combo based, etc.
There’s strategies both simple and complex depending on how far you delve into each of these games. Find something you like and stick with it, or step out of your comfort zone to try something new. Fidn the strengths of a concept and try to capitalize on them. Don’t chastise the elephant because it cannot climb trees as well as the monkey, praise it because it can carry heavy loads like no other beast of burden could bear!
There really just isn’t any evidence of guess breaking being less prominent in S1. Some people think maybe there was, anecdotally, but… there’s really no evidence. It’s not true when you think about the games theoretically, and it’s not true if you look at old video footage. Why do people still think this is true?
As for the footsies debate, again, I disagree. Special moves can be used in footsies. If you think some movement techniques are “low risk, high reward”, then okay, let’s talk about those, but don’t pretend they are solely the domain of S2 when S1 had Spinal, Fulgore, and Sadira, in addition to a largely safe on block full screen wind kick, shadow wind kick going across the screen in 5 frames, Wulf doing invincible dash to 0 frame shadow eclipse, etc. These things are not “footsies” any more than TJ doing powerline is. To think otherwise is to be disingenuous and to actually harm KI moving forward.
I think a large part of this debate comes from the fact that people fondly remember Season 1, as they should! A new fighting game, a new community, a new gameplay system to figure out, and the characters were really cool. But, more than a year removed from that, we should be able to look back and objectively analyze what was and wasn’t true about S1, and stop pretending that S2 invented a bunch of strategies that weren’t viable or encouraged in S1 as well, especially if it had been played another year. We came at S2 with a year’s worth of knowledge on the KI system, so we started to figure things out a bit; almost everything that is true about S2 can be applied to S1 as well, and I’m willing to debate this point.
If you think KI is “too YOLO”, you have a few options:
Discuss WHY you think this is the case, and present specific situations and facts, in proper context. Provide a suggested improvement to the game (ie, a balance change) that would eliminate this problem, and be open to discuss why this is or isn’t a good idea with others. Example: “I think Jago being able to cancel the recovery of DP into shadow DP is a bad idea. I think reversals should always be punishable; when they aren’t, they should cost precious resources or be incredibly situational, and I argue that Jago holding 1 stock of shadow meter is not enough of a unique situation for this to be true, since he has the best meter build in the game. I feel correctly baiting a reversal and having to guess as to whether you can punish it or not is a negative aspect of any fighting game that shouldn’t exist.” See how I admit my biases, present a suggested fix, present sound reasoning, and am willing to discuss?
Stop playing the game and go play something else. See if you can find a “less YOLO” game in Marvel, MKX, or SF4 (all of which have moments of insane anti-footsies play by this magic KI definition), or wait until SF5, which will undoubtedly be a paragon of game design and will make sure no characters can bypass your optimal range with a safe on block approach and force you to make guesses of any kind to survive.
I feel like we’re all arguing against an imaginary person. I think the people who this is aimed at aren’t included in the ~20 people who frequent these forums with any sort of competitive disposition.
Really though, the whole comparison is entirely subjective. SF players will say KI has no footsies or fundamentals… MK players will say it has no gore or combo complexity. Meanwhile, I can say that SF characters are too copy-paste, and that MK is all 50-50’s.
I can also play KI online without wanting to slit my wrists.
Eh… I dunno. There’s a pretty strong growing sentiment among certain crowds (some streamers, some twitch chats) that KI is just a guess-fest and rewards bad play. They start talking in memes/subscriber twitch emotes and ignore what is actually happening on the screen. They don’t analyze the variables around a situation and what they can do to stop their opponent from guessing, instead they just complain about it. They don’t design tight safe jump setups or meaty timings to prevent non-invincible reversals from hitting them, instead they play by feel and hope it works out. These people definitely exist… I wouldn’t say they’re imaginary. In fact, at least in the twitch crowd, they might be approaching the majority.
I feel all this stuff can be squashed by information, practice, and the correct perspective on the game, but I also feel like I’m fighting a losing battle most of the time, since most people just like to get swept up in emotion or the mob mentality of stream chats. It’s normally easy to ignore this type of stuff, but in this case, the sad reality is that this perspective is actually harming KI.
Oh of course they exist, but I don’t think this thread will reach them… and if it did, I doubt there would be any convincing. For that reason, it feels like we’re arguing against nobody in this thread.
That’s not to say that it’s a bad topic or anything. There’s discussion to be had, but it could sadly just end up as an echo chamber.
I’m not sure that you’re acknowledging the context. “YOLO” is used in an entirely different manner in FGs than in generally accepted usage. It’s a lot easier than typing “full of brainless guessing and not refined”.
That said, generally accepted or even alternative usages of this term being a good or bad thing is another debate entirely. Definitely outside the context of this thread.
here’s my take, KI is a free bird in a lot of ways and this game shines its brightest when it embraces this moniker. when player choice is scaled down and frame by frame player decisions are removed for a more linear experience, isn’t the essence of what this game stands for. guessing a manual break isn’t really a guess. it’s an informed decision about a probability based on a defined system of rules. It might seem like a mess on top just because players try to catch other players slipp’n. aren’t all brawlers 50-50? am I gonna make that move safe by way of DP or aren’t I? almost every situation is 50-50. and that’s how its designed to be. ya there are some nasty ■■■ 1 chance breaks but those instances don’t define the game but more so the trait of the characters and not the game as a whole. if the devs ever curb guess breaks by implementing a limit on breakers this game is doomed. lol. take out the recaptures and we’ll talk about it but ya this game is like a upside down river. calm on the bottom and raging Rapids on the top.
But wait, you just used it twice…
Does that mean…you’re dead to you?
What if we’re all actually dead, and we’re just haunting this thread remembering the dreaded word that killed us all…
The yolo word?! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN
OK, serious note; Probably don’t have to worry about yolo as a phrase too much anymore. It’s not like it was in 2012 when everyone was taking it ultra seriously and saturating every market. The definition has changed to fit a mockery of that trend, as a say to describe inherent unintelligence and reckless abandonment of self preservation for the sake of a momentary high.
Or something. Point is, probably don’t need to worry too much. There are much worse catch phrases that have become internet phenomena.
Yeah, fair enough. The only reason I posted in this thread is because it’s irritated me for so long that sometimes you just need a place to vent about it.
It just sucks to see a game you like get overrun by false information and people hating. My hope is that people figure it out before they turn off the entire FGC from the game.
but ya this game is like a upside down river. calm on the bottom and raging Rapids on the top.
There are much worse catch phrases that have become internet phenomena.