KI without counter breakers is a bad game.
The current KI with combo breakers that deal damage is a bad game. I dunno how people could be against instinct-canceled breakers (where you get damage twice a match, at most, after a breaker) and then say there should be a system that gives you damage every time you break. The risk/reward for the offense is in a pretty good place right now, giving defense more reward for breaking is a bad idea.
Well said Infil
I think as a community itâs good to give tips and be more open to sharing with them. That in turn should help people get a better handle on the game mechanics of these.
Because ppl hate dishing out combo breakersz and eating 40% because of it why should I throw it out if I out spaced or outsmarted you, there are ppl who will guess break correctly every manual u do when u switch and they u say ok well let me bait out this counter breaker then u do it he falls for but u see a fkn lockout instead of a counter break because he guess broke before u counter broke even when u read him which is stupid as â â â . It should be if any buttons is pressed during a counter break u get counter broken not get away with the scrub guess breaking. The thing is for veteran FGC players and scrub FGC players is the veteran wants to punish u without u getting a chance to throw out a random guess and get rewarded for it which is the s2 meta in s1 ppl respected ur decision making in manuals and u got rewarded for ur openings yeah ppl hated one chance but u still got the reward for your punish so thereâs that bro. I hope s3 meta caters to solid play instead of the guessing game and random gimmicks
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Lolno. You want to play street fighter? Get out KI before you do
As has been pointed out over and over again, the idea that you are all being beaten by scrubs randomly guessing is demonstrably not true. I knew that high level players were not immune to the scrub mentality but for so many people to be complaining about the CENTRAL MECHANIC of the game as if it was in any way changed in S2 and as if anyone who is good at it is just guessing at random is shocking.
Itâs not that hard to understand how this works. âI already beat you in neutral.â Congratulations - you used one of the insane offensive tools available in the game to land a hit. I will refrain from accusing you of randomly guessing - even though thatâs probably how you âwonâ the neutral. Pat yourself on the back and then start playing the combo game. Why is it that I can land counter breakers but all these supposed FGC veteran hotshots canât handle it?
If you are complaining about getting broken in KI you are a scrub. Just as surely as if you play Street fighter and complain that Ryu gets a fireball. You donât want to play the game in front of you, you want to play a different game that lives in your mind and has some sort of rule about a full combo being the only appropriate reward for winning neutral.
If someone keeps guessing than you have an opportunity. You now know your opponent keeps trying to guess and thus you can call them out for it with your counter-breakers. You can bait them into trying to break you then use your counter breakers. Upon success theyâll fall for it you will have three seconds to go hog-wild on them and make them eat as much damage as possible. This game allows you to make them think twice. If you are as you call it: âsick of rewarding scrub guessingâ than you can tke a more active role in stopping them. Donât reward them by being predictable.
You talk about using manuals all the time and if thatâs the case perhaps maybe youâve run into a bunch of folks who are all use to breaking them, so you can bring out some ADs once and awhile as bait to give them some shock and awe. If smeone as you said âkeeps guessingâ then itâs also possible youâre using the same manuals or relying on them in such a way that itâs easy for your opponent to know what youâre doing and thus they can break you.
Guessing can already be easy to punish if you use your counter breakers or vary your combo inputs a little more.
Youâre approaching KI like itâs Street Fighter, which it simply isnât. Some of what you know might apply to SF but only at the be very basic level like spacing and all that. But once you open up your enemy the job is still not done. Even if you managed to get it in you still have a duty to yourself to keep your opponent under your thumb with the combos. KIâs combo system is uniqe in this way. And not bein able to break combos kills a two player interaction. Youâre going to be going back to MVC3 minus the bad balance. But thatâs something for another time.
If you take the time to apply it in practice you can use Counter breakers effectively. This isnât a game where if your opponent forces you into a combo where you should put the controller down and give up because of no possibility of coming back from it. You will always have a chance to do something about it.
The real question is: are you willing to risk breaking it. Thereâs three different ways to fail if you throw in the combo breaker, along with timing and wrong strength. Any failur gives your foe three seconds to go ballistic. And if you do a counter breaker, you can go even further to dish out damage if youâve sucessfully baited them into trying to break you.
You need to approach this combo system in KI with a different mindset. Itâs already pretty easy to open up your opponent since it focuses so much on high offense. Youâre still playing risk even if you won the neutral game.
Donât think of winning neutral = easy victory. You still have more you can do when in combat in KI. Itâs constant two way interaction and even if youâre doing a combo you donât have time to sit and relax, you gotta see it all the way through to make sure you donât get broken in the first place.
If you are a pro, than this shouldnât be hard to take great advantage of. Just a simple matter of you getting the best of your opponent because of their own habits.
Unless your name is Evil Ryu, If you whiff punish a low forward in SF4, your reward is somewhere around 100-150 damage (ie, 10-15%, depending on your character and meter situation). If you whiff punish a low forward in KI, your reward is somewhere around 8-15% unbreakable damage (which is pretty much the SF4 value) and probably a 1/3 manual to start the combo and a chance to do 40-50% with one more correct read. If you consider all the 1st frame breaks, all the counter breakers, and all the breaks/lockouts in between, I imagine your damage for whiff punishing a low forward averages out to somewhere in the 22-25% range.
This is higher than the average value for a whiff punish in SF4. People who think KI doesnât reward whiff punishing because of guess breaks arenât looking at the data.
A scrub eh I would like to play you in set to see if thatâs true a lot ppl seem to sit on there â â â in the forums defending guess breaking without playing the game and seeing what ppl is talking about instead of saying oh u got beat by a random guess break oh well ur a scrub for that. I assume u guess break before ADâs come out huh, and a hit in neutral ins not random ur obviously not good at any fg if u seriously think input spacing someone is random pls dude gfto I already know what Iâm speaking too. Have u ever gone to a offline ever? Doubt it. Not only is this a complaint for high lvl KI players but FGC vets that tried s2 and dropped it immediately it should give u a clue to whatâs going on. Therefore I refuse to engage in the scrubby defense of guess breaking u can pat yourself on the back for all ur guessing rewards but I donât sorry
facepalm if I wanted to play sf I would be playing it obviously waiting for sf5 , like I said ppl will have opinions on a aspect of a game where here itâs SF MKX OR MARVEL ppl just seem to think KI is this perfectly balanced game with no scrubby aspect to it no it donât work that way everyone has something to say in all fighters dude u either ignore the convo or have a decent duscussion
Youâll find the lot of us who defend the gameâs breaker system. Iâve been around since season1 and as far as I can tell KIâs always allowed players to do combo breakers and counter breakers, itâs always been that way.
Take into consideration what Iâve posted in the OP and see if any of that helps you. You may have some good points about opening people up and going for the combo but this is where KI is separated from typical fighting games. In this situation, you canât approach it the same way as SF or any other.
You have a point but itâs super frausting coming from a game where of u get hit u get hit not get a 10th chance I guess I do need more combo work Iâll practice more than
Thatâs basically it. Lol I know the trouble: when I went to play MKX I kept getting my stuff mixed up with KI that tends to happen with games within the same genre. Itâs a matter of adjusting. I know if I tried to play SF5 and have the mentality of KI I may just get frustrated myself lol.
Youâll get there dude. Who knows maybe in time youâll be able to figure out your foe and make emâ regret ever trying to break you in the first place : p
Losing a set doesnât change his argument, though. I donât see how playing a set will settle anything.
Every single hit you get in neutral is the result of perfect spacing and a reaction? None of it is guesswork or prediction or reads or playing the odds? Thereâs more ârandomnessâ in footsies than people are willing to admit. Not all of it (just like how not every break is a guess), but there is definitely a healthy non-zero amount.
I donât think this has ever been said about KI by anybody. In fact, I donât think this has been said of any fighting game ever made. We look at the game as a whole and see what it contributes to the genre, just like we do with any other fighting game.
I personally donât want to risk myself getting opened up and eating a combo because I tried to do a counter-breaker. Thatâs all it is really.
Players can get a lockout though if they fail to combo break.
True but youâre still risking yourself regardless if you choose to break or not. However if you were to work a way to bait someone into breaking, counter-breakers can be good for this.
You know what? I apologize. I shouldnât have goaded you that way. Iâm working on trying not to contribute to making the internet the vile den of scum and villainy that it is, and inflammatory comments donât help. The forum has been really civil lately and I donât want to be the guy who starts the ugly death spiral. Itâs easy to come across as an even bigger jerk than I actually am when typing to strangers who canât see my face or hear my tone of voice. So I will put the âscrubâ moniker away.
But I do stand by the ideas from my post. Combo breakers and counter breakers are part of the game. Itâs not like nerfing or buffing one guys special. Itâs a CORE part of the game. The breaker game is a fundamental for KI. If you lose in it, you are losing the game. And every break that beats you - even on first frame- is not a guess. If it was all guessing you would get two lockouts for every break. If the percentage is higher than that itâs because your opponent knows what you are going to do. Donât complain about guess breaking. Make them PAY.
I would be thrilled to go a set with you, and probably lose. Iâm sitting around 1500th in ranked right now and I never really climb higher. But I have 500+ hours in the game and I really enjoy it. Which I think gives me the right to talk about it. There are times, for sure, when I guess break - even when I know itâs not a good idea. But often itâs because I know the other guy is doing manuals and avoiding heavy ADs, so I can better my chances to 50/50. Towards the end of the combo, when a lockout isnât likely do too much damage then 50/50 is good. The only way to keep me from guess breaking in those situations is if youâve shown me that you are willing to take a chance on a counter breaker.
So, if they took some of the risk out of counter breaking - as in you dropped the combo but could recover in time to block, leading to at least a 50/50 situation rather than guaranteed to eat a combo, is this something you would do more?
The difference is Iâm the one dealing the damage. Iâd rather not try to lose that advantage unless Iâm confident in my chances in actually landing in.
Which is where the figuring out your foe comes into play. If you have some constantley breaking a particular combo like your ADs or manual, do it again but add a counter-breaker in the mix before they break it. it sounds easier said than done but you can keep that advantage you want to have much more if you pull it off.
You still have a chance to lose the advantage if you donât do anything to stop the combo from being broken.
In my opinion:
The Problem right now is that the defender is at advantage if they break and the Attacker needs to guess if they break.
To make things clear -
If i can see a heavy linker i can break without guessing (this is a major advantage over the attacker - wich always has to guess) at any given time the linker is active - i just can wait for a reactable point or in addition i can randomly guess with always 33% (even manuals added - just break with manual timing so both get covered with the guess doubles and manuals). Depending on KV or life left on the first lifebar the latter is less risky (imo there is no risk if im low on life on the first lifebar).
If i do a Heavy Linker i have to guess always if he breaks or not. Due to the few frames a counter breaker is active i only can cover a small window. if i counterbreak in the middle of the linker it could be already to late and i lose the damage and get combo punished for doing nothing wrong. If i break in the beginning it could be too early - i lose damage and get punished for doing nothing wrong.
The whole system becomes even more unbalanced the further i go into full kv in a long combo due to damage scaling. A CB resets the KV but not the damage scaling. So if i do a lvl 4 Shadow ender near full KV i get only marginably less than a doing a CB near full KV and than Shadow Ender. If I get broken there i lose the damage, he gets instinct and we get reset to neutral (unless he has instinct) - if i fail a CB attempt than i lose the damage, and i get punished. Both are bad for the Attacker.
The risk reward isnt simply there. If the scaling would be reset too than of course i would cb damn often but in general that would be bad for the game.
Thats all my opinion - but thats the reason i barely go for counter breakers (but i also barely break anyways - and if i do i randomly guess or not guess - with no pattern). But i dislike the balance in breaking in general - imo its always in favor for the defender. Sometimes more sometimes less but always in favor.