To arms! Maximilian's call for a new KI

The problem with crowdfunding a game is that the expectations of the community with regards to how far a dollar goes in game development are pretty outrageous. Based on the experience with this game people will contribute $100k and then demand a $4million product.

I think the prior experience with the Shadow Jago fund and then the tournament fund were pretty mixed. Certainly it demonstrated there was interest in the community. But then there was a lot of impatience and dissatisfaction. And from my side, I’m not entirely sure MS managed it all that well. I couldn’t guarantee you that all the tournament money went to tournaments, for example.

I think the most realistic expectation is a season model like the one they introduced with KI 2013. Hopefully season one is a little more bulky and full featured. But we’ll see. I’m still not convinced we’ll get anything at all.

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yeah it would have to be a mutually agreed upon developer between ms and ki comm, and it would have to be agreed on what was going to be done in what order and laid out how much each thing would cost. I think that is the best chance outside of a new KI, if we could get the engine worked on to allow new skins and faster load times which IG says was “too hard” basically, a lot of money would be brought in on skins alone outside of the crowdfunding.

You would have to approach it like a well run business if you really wanted to fix KI. Could charge 2-5 dollars on each skin, maybe 10 for really fancy ones and I’m sure the KI comm would gladly pay those prices if they knew what it was going towards as far as new development and probably just because they wanted them.

I’m generally against crowdfunding a game like KI, which is owned and published by a company that is decidedly not indie or cash-strapped. Apart from the (to me anyway) inherently problematic nature of the model with respect to a large corporation, there’s also this:

Generally speaking, gamers have ■■■■■■ ideas about how much things cost to make. Indivisible, Lab Zero’s (of Skullgirls fame) newest title, raised just over $2M during its crowdfunding phase. Being extremely generous and assuming the company pockets fully half of that amount, that still makes an indie-developed 2D action-RPG (a decidedly ambitious one to be sure, with gorgeous sprite work and a number of guests they likely paid royalties to use) a one million dollar undertaking. The rough numbers the KI devs threw out to estimate the cost of a character ($100,000) and a stage $75,000) in an existing engine are pretty high, with bare-bones Season 1 coming in at a $1.4M price tag before adding in any networking functionality, UI, or single player content. The title was free to play and MS gave it 3 seasons so obviously there’s a market and opportunity here, but frankly I’d prefer not to have to foot the bill up front as a consumer. MS has sufficient money to invest in their IP’s.

I’d give them a C. The Shago fund was handled well, but there was considerable confusion and a notable lack of communication with regards to the tournament fund. It did all eventually get spent (Yami had a breakdown somewhere a while back), but there was a definite period where it almost looked like MS just pocketed the money and ran. I imagine a hypothetical crowdfunding for a full game would be handled much better than that, but I agree it highlights another unnecessary (to me anyway) issue that arises from the model. Let the devs focus on making the best game they can - I don’t need them babysitting the community to make sure all the backers are happy and sufficiently informed.

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I disagree pretty strongly with that idea. Much as I love KI 2013, the game is already close to the point where its systems begin to collapse under their own weight. And not in a semantic “the game isn’t finished because A/B/C don’t have ultimates and X/Y/Z don’t have stages” kind of way - in terms of core gameplay mechanics and character options. KI has a lot going on already, and I think it’s pretty easy to argue that it already shows some of the strain of maintaining a highly diverse cast that’s this big.

Judging from the PC and 1X versions of the title, long load times appear to be a hardware issue as opposed to an engine issue per se. More to the point, engine migration/evolution is neither cheap nor fast (which was IG’s actual point, as opposed to “wah it’s too hard”), and if you’re going to do that there’s probably not much reason you wouldn’t just build or license another engine that does everything that you want it to natively. And again, if you’re going to go to another engine anyway, you kinda may as well just go ahead and make a brand new game, and get all the good publicity and marketing that comes with that.

This might come as a surprise to the people who pay much attention to me here or on social media since I pretty consistently shill KI, but I emphatically would not at this point pay for more KI costumes. I wouldn’t pay for another tournament fund, and I wouldn’t pay for them to overhaul the engine. I’m more than happy to pay more-than-full price for a title I love or that shows great promise, but I’m disinclined to pay MS to add more stuff to a game that is 6 years old and already sufficiently complete for me. They make a new KI and I’ll throw another $40/season at them easily, but I wouldn’t give them money to prop up a game that is finished and has been for some time.

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not only that, but the crowdfunded gaming scene has its share of failures.

star citizen - 300 million, still no real game just a broken tech demo. once they stop paying the bills on their servers…whole thing is gone and people are out 1000s they threw at it. they’re still crowd funding. game is also in alpha for…6+ years.

system shock remake - started with unity engine, scope was pretty well set. dev team gets too cocky, engine change to UE4, increase in scope, updates becoming scarce, backer populace up in arms over wtf is going on. dev team goes on a 1 year leave to bring the game’s scope back to where it was (and i believe revert back to unity)

mighty no. 9 - game was not as good as it was promised, was pretty bad in the end. inafune was not only making this game but i think he was working on RE:Core at the same time. it showed that his energy was split, he infamously said “at least backers got something”. GG

this is why im skeptical of crowd funding in general. its not only just the idea of players not understanding how much it takes in the year of our lord 2019 to really make a well made product. it costs big money, and when something isnt crowd funded well over 7 figures it is going to show and they’re going to cry about it.

you have the potential of an underwhelming product, and you also have the potential outcome of a dev team going off the rails. it can be to milk more backers of their money for a game that’ll never launch cough chris roberts family and friends *cough, or they just lose control and increase scope way beyond what was pitched to backers thus requiring more funding, but also leads to a project’s collapse or hiatus like system shock’s remake.

the idea can be good, but it really really needs to be well done. igarashi pulled it off quite well with bloodstained, its a successful game though the switch version does have its issues. however people need to consider the 9 hells he had to go through in order for it to work and we get a game in our hands that was more or less AAA quality.

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I’m just isolating this quite because, no offense, the idea of the KI community agreeing on anything let alone being competent to choose a development house for the game is just patently absurd and probably another reason why this idea would never work.

This is for sure true. I actually think Mighty No. 9 gets a bad wrap. It plays like a mega man game to me. But it highlights the point that you don’t necessarily get what you want just because you crowdfund a game.

It’s not surprising and quite frankly, I suspect a majority of KI fans feel the same way. I don’t tend to get histrionic about things and I generally don’t think it makes sense to criticize or disparage dev teams, publishers, or companies that actually MAKE the things we like. But the way KI whimpered to a halt with little or no communication, the mess of releasing things for purchase then giving them away for free later, the fact that I sat in the shadow Jago KI gold stash with nothing to use it for for the better part of two years etc. eroded my enthusiasm for throwing money at the game just to show my support.

I don’t like to be negative. But a rational look at the course of the development of KI doesn’t fill me with confidence in the high level decision making at MS for the games development (and therefore a sequel). I still love the creative team, both DH and IG - they did their best and gave us a ■■■■ fine game at its core. But I’m not feeling like if I invest in a Ponzi scheme for a new KI that I’m likely to be happy with the results.

Give me a preorder or even a deluxe edition and I’m still in. But I’m not anxious to get nickel and dimes into spending hundreds on pointless extras.

I really agree with this. I LOVE the systems they have put in KI. But the last thing I want to see is them keep adding additional complexity to the game to keep the hardcore interested while making it ever more out of reach for new players. I don’t want future KI to be like Tekken where you have to have been playing the game forever to really “get it.”

i am in agreement that KI 2013 is complete, it really doesnt need anything else. there is already so much here like others have said and i am willing to wager that even today there is still tech to be found with various characters that probably havent been fully explored. to add more would indeed be considered folly

Oh, without question. I think KI is probably one of the more underexplored modern FG’s out there. Even our very best players are usually very upfront about having only scratched the surface of their various characters.

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KI is finished? WHAT? This game couldn’t be more halfway done. The rest if fixing this engine is too expensive or the same as a new game money wise, sure, forget fixing this. Also, if the load times are hardware, i’d agree on going for the new one too. However, two problems, relying on another developer to stay true to the mechanics of this one and just fine tune it is pretty much akin to relying on sun in seattle.

Developers usually never stay true to the good stuff in remakes, they always want to make a name for themselves, try something new and hope it works out so they can claim the praise if it goes well, if it doesn’t, they usually just leave and don’t care.

Final thing, MS is terrible at marketing, I rarely ever see xbox advertising, if I do its usually just the big 3, while sony advertises constantly, yet MS has endless money and sony is almost bankrupt, only surviving as a company mainly because they advertise well and have a fan base due to that.
Advertising and taking advantage of what you have is something MS has no understanding of at all.

Yep, second thought, after reading all that, its easy to see how developers would scam cf. 300 million and still no game, sorry but that’s hugely criminal. I don’t care if that game is big or they say “it took this money to make this”, bs, a lot of that was completely stolen.

Honestly at this point it really looks like the new game might be the only hope, only other chance I can see is scarlett should load this ki instantly and crowdfunding to fix the engine to allow skins which would then pay for more content is all I can see as the two possibilities.

KI is insanely awesome in possibilities, problem is its so hard to get there because the tools mostly aren’t there to do so. The online community is so devolved its not even funny, 90-95% of players simply hold up and don’t ever block and mash the tons of broken stuff/gimmicks or if forced to defend, just dp or mash breaker.

Most games can be won online by just counter breaking constantly and knowing how to beat the gimmicks, or just spamming meaty’s until they dp spam and block/punish/cbreaker. Its devolved so hard its rarely entertaining or even good for somebody to play online, it actually makes you worse. High level play has never been achieved in KI. Some players have been pretty good for a bit then left, but people treat it far too much as a masher and the tools just aren’t there for the community to raise its level of play. Online(majority of the community) has been declining for a long time.

I just won about 8 games in a row by just holding up and pressing fierce the entire time against 3 different people, level 50 silver, gold and qualifier, they play mostly the same as a lot of killers do, this is how bad it has gotten, there will never be a game where endless mashing is so widespread. That’s 50/50 devs and communities fault, tools aren’t there to improve for the casual player or learn who you want to, and the community supported terrible development for a long time and basically ignored blatant problems with the game for 3 years because some cool characters were created and used as a distraction to the majority.

This game isn’t likely to see its potential unless we get a new one that’s true the mechanics and game with the community actually holding the devs accountable. The top players during this games main run really let this game down by not committing to calling the devs out on the main problems for its development lifespan.

Outside of a rare new game with good true development or a very rare crowdfunding to fix skins lead into more funding through skins, KI will likely go down as the fg with the most unrealized potential ever.

Aren’t you the guy who can’t anti-air? :thinking:

If you want to play good players, then find good players and ask for matches. And when they beat you, instead of complaining about their gimmicks or abuse of “broken” stuff, ask them for feedback on your play so you can actually improve. If you spent half as much time trying to actually get better as you do complaining about how everyone else is terrible at the game, you’d probably be pretty decent. At the very least, you’d likely be able to anti-air by now :man_shrugging:t5:

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i think someone from that team is going to go to prison eventually. look at theranos scandal, its kind of similar in some ways.

@STORM179 i was about to say my anti-air capabilities suck, but then i remembered i play hisako. kinda hard to not suck with the range on that down heavy of hers haha

Haha. Hisako’s cr.HP is indeed pretty sick. KI’s AA buttons and options in general are pretty top-tier to be honest. Most of the cast can nail you for 15% or more pretty easily if they catch you jumping in willy-nilly :joy:

i had trouble landing mira’s AA, but fulgore/hisako was easy

Mira has one of the worst AA buttons in KI. It’s not bad, particularly when compared to other FG’s, but it’s definitely one of the more particular AA buttons in the game. Kim Wu’s cr.HP is another awkward one, but that one is actually quite strong (the hitbox is pretty large), just a bit slow. It leads to massive damage though, so the slight weakness there makes a fair bit of sense balance wise.

yeah it was definitely a bit weird labbing it up, mira’s had some kind of timing to it from what i recall. i wasnt able to reliably pull it off during the time when i was using her online. if some jumped in on me, i would usually back dash and hit them with st.M if able depending on the situation. other times id just block

I think entertainment products probably fall into a different category than medical testing when it comes to things like fraud. But I wouldn’t argue that someone from Star Citizen May be found guilty of a crime.

Crowdfunding to “fix” the Hex engine to improve KI character skins and sell them isn’t a possibility. It is a lower percentage probability than you admitting that KI has high level players - but you aren’t one of them. Meaning less than zero.

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the similarities between the 2 cases start and end at “hey, here is X product, its going to do X things!” but then investors/customers do not get what it is they paid for. as well as personnel being involved in shady practices behind closed doors. thats about it really. btw, i highly recommend you read john carryou’s Bad Blood book, i was really impressed with his investigative work in blowing the lid off theranos and its malpractices. there was some really shocking stuff in there, it was really interesting

I hope you won’t take this the wrong way, but I wouldn’t have pegged you for someone to read Bad Blood. My sister read it - I haven’t but I’m familiar with the case. It is pretty nuts.

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