The Replay and Analysis Thread

I actually know the sequence you’re talking about. I raised an eyebrow approvingly :-p

:joy:

That’s because you influence on wakeup a freaking lot. Got tired of it so just decided to force you to guess high or low for the counter.

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:man_shrugging: Guilty as charged

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Max uploaded a set from a recent KI stream:

The set itself is moderately interesting, but the thing that stuck out to me was watching how a more experienced player handles dealing with things that they might not understand as a set progresses. Max’s MU-specific KI knowledge is pretty intermediate (and he knew very little about Kim Wu), but you see him make some pretty quick and effective adjustments really early on that allow him to exploit player tendencies from his opponent. It was a pretty cool thing to see I think, and kind of illustrates the ways in which identifying and breaking down the player can often be more important than breaking down the MU. Even if you don’t understand all the ins and outs of a character, being able to adapt to the player will very often win you games.

Also - always use the meter if it will kill, and (if your intent is to win as opposed to look cool) always maximize lockout damage with standard damage loops. The Kim player threw away about 4 games solely on poor damage optimization.

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Storm and I matched up randomly in exhibition a couple days ago and we got a chance to run a long set of games. Figured the Kim Wu vs Jago set could prove to be something worth analyzing, or at least a good set to watch. There was a Kim Wu vs Hisako set as well. The connection was ok, but it’s still US East Coast to Singapore, it wasn’t flawless probably for either of us. Life and times of internet gaming, you know.

I could point out an absolute truckload of things I wish I did better or capitalized on better (a lot of typing worth), but it is what it is. Overall, I think it went ok for me. What I will note for you is in the second video, around the 5-6 minute mark, that recording seems to have de-synched and the match ‘ends’ with us just staring at each other. It loses itself right around the mid-round break, but if you’re trying to keep track of the set score, that one ended in my favor so just add 1 game to my total after that to get the set count.

But as usual, if you wish to analyze it on my end, be brutal, be honest, be ruthless. It’s been well over 1 year since i posted a set to be critiqued, and I still feel like there’s more yet for me to learn. On Storm’s end, I can’t speak for him insofar as any advice on his Jago. Thanks in advance.

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It’s been awhile since I’ve tried to give any critique on this thread, so I’ll give it a shot. I’ll edit this comment once i finish the sets.

Alright I just finished the first set. Was entertaining to watch. I’ll try to point some things out. Remember I’m no Kim Wu player, so apologies if i get something wrong

For you Wafer,

You played well throughout won’t lie, but i did notice somethings.

  • Throughout the set, there were instances in where you would parry fireballs and instantly follow up with a dragon dash. That’s fine to get closer, but you weren’t always in the distance to start pressuring yet. You would still need to overcome a couple more fireballs before you could use your normals. It just seems like that resource could have been used for something more beneficial rather than a dash from full screenish. Kim Wu has options against zoning

  • Twice in the set when you used that shadow overhead kick to counter fireballs and ended up getting blocked, you didn’t use a dragon cancel to avoid the Storms shadow counter. I think you had instinct as well in one of those instances. Just wondering why you let the shadow move rock rather than canceling it.

  • I don’t know how iffy the connection was but i noticed that you seemed to struggle a bit in max punishing Storms mistakes. You punished some things correctly using Cr.HP (at least i think that’s her best punish) but 5-7 times you punished either a DP, failed counter breaker, or failed shadow counter with other moves. (Ik you can’t max punish everything but in most instances that i ssw you had enough time to use a better button. ) Once you tried to punish a failed shadow counter move with triple cr.lp to l.dragon dance and used up all your combo meter. That lost damage does stack up.

  • One moment in the set, on Storms wakeup you used meaty cr.lk to shadow nunchuks. You did hit Storm with hit, but unless you had godlike reactions to the confirm, i don’t think it was a confirm. Can you dragon cancel shadow nunchuks before the first hit connects? Because Storm, if he had blocked it, could have shadow countered the first hit. Just wondering why you used that option

Hope this helps, I’ll add anything else i see in the second.

Also @STORM179,

  • I was mostly focusing on kim wu throughout the set but i did notice one thing that might be of use for you. When against a whiffed shadow dragon kick and you know that the kim wu has dragons, theres a 9/10 chance she’s gonna cancel out of it. If she’s in the air when she does, a simple DP can shut her down before her jumping attacks can connect. Once or twice in the set, she got away with whiffing a S.dragon kick and pressuring with a jumping attack when you were in a good position to AA. Just something i saw. Its a lit more difficult to punish if she cancels on the ground tho.

Before anyone says it, I’m aware that light dragon dance is DP-punishable. Still can’t DP reliably out of blockstun on Hitbox.

I wondered if that was the case. Between that and kata strings, I know they’re DP interruptable, but you hit them very sporadically. So figured if you’re going to let me, I’ll run my katas.

Yeah, I find it basically impossible to DP from blockstun on the left side (although I can AA DP extremely quickly from neutral), and find it quite difficult to do it on the right side. It’s kind of annoying to tell you the truth :joy:

Yeah, also figured as much once you ran the Hisako set. “Let me put all this nonsense to bed right now,” is what I imagine you said when you switched characters.

Thanks for the feedback Joker. Let me answer a couple of the things you were curious on from my side.

No, it was not a confirm, i’ll tell you that. It was a bet. I know Storm well enough to figure that he will not crouch block Kim Wu very often. And at that moment, i had a dragon on me as well. If he blocked, yes, i could’ve cancelled the shadow. This is useful if, like you stated, they figured ‘Ah, that’s a easy shadow counter’ and i cancel out and grab them. Free wasted bar.

There were multiple instances where i missed my punishes. I won’t blame connections, it’s my own fault. I recall one without having to rewatch the video. I had a knockdown and frame killed a kata into his wakeup. Storm popped instinct and went for M(?) DP out of the screen freeze. I had already backdashed. But i fuddled my punish and he was able to block and kill me for it.

That instance where you were talking about with 3x lp to punish a missed shadow counter? Goes a little deeper. I know that Storm picked up on me using st MP > H dragon dance to keep my turn at a distance, off throw techs, corner breakers, etc and had shadow countered me for it a few times. I was trying to bait him with button into cancel, which i did, but i didn’t get what i wanted after the cancel (L dragon dance i think) so i mashed jab.

If i missed cancelling into Instinct, my fault for not realizing that i had that available to keep me safe. But i’m not too keen on dragon cancelling if i can recognize that i’ve missed punishing a projectile and they’ve gotten enough time to block. Shadow Dragon Dance has awesome range and projectile invincibility but also very long startup, is more a read based punish, can be stuffed/jumped/evaded, punishable on block and punishable on cancel. I may as well save the dragon for other things.

It’s for this reason that later in the set where, after seeing post screen freeze how late i input SDD in response to a fireball, i knew i would not be in time. So i cancelled after i had moved past the fireball and dropped j MK on him. He shadow countered immediately, and i was able to kill him for it.

I do this at times to see if it coerces a response from my opponent. Specifically with Jago, i’m looking to see if he’s windkicking right after a fireball to check me for forward movement. At full screen, yes, not going to get much. But midrange, around his m windkick or my h dragon dance range, i want to see if i can entice something i can punish. A jump in/back for instance.

Using a dragon like that is definitely not the most effective use, but it beats hoarding them for almost no good reason. Storm showed to me that he would not stop feeding me fireballs, and dragons by extension, only until i had instinct popped.

Also, i had shot confidence in being able to react with a firecracker inside that range. :slight_smile:

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At 7:43 in the first video, I don’t think I could’ve screeched harder from that jump in shadow DP.

When I get a chance, I’ll type up a better analysis.

In the first two minutes there was a brilliantly timed safe cross-up. Overall the neutral for both was back and forth and was quite interesting.

One thing I’d want to make note of, I suppose it’s really just a lack of exploration, but I like your manual use early on @STORM179. I think it might even serve you best to dig into some of Jago’s more liberal manual options during Instinct. Especially since you refrained from using his pressure and it sort of went to waste (I’m guessing it’s just a natural response from Hisako’s instinct outside of bullying range). Not to mention that it looks pretty stylish.

I do this quite often, especially after a kara cancel. Though I wonder how that parry dash would fair against shadow windkick.

At that moment in time, i was just tired of playing footsies with him.

A dragon dash is 15f so you’d have to time it to catch Kim at least roughly through halfway through the dash to punish it.

Yeah, I’m still on my “only playing him for fun” with Jago. I don’t generally post too many Jago sets here because I’m not particularly interested in really leveling up with him to be honest. If it’s a fun MU where I get to use the Jago tools I find fun then I’m pretty content :joy:

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Something I wanted to touch on @FallibleJoker14. On Kim’s max damage shadow punish, it’s kinda weird for her for more than a couple reasons. Cl st HP > S. Firecracker is her max punish. But…

  • Due to it’s high startup, S. Dragon Dance does not link from a high number of normals. So S. Firecracker is generally more consistent.
  • S. Firecracker suffers from nearly zero forward movement, so max range normals like st HP/HK/MP can have opponents fall out very easily.
  • St MP hits deceptively hard and is a stronger damage normal than st HK (never understand why…) and very much comparable to st HP or cr HP.

Basically, you combine these factors and at times, it makes it tricky to always lead with a max damage shadow to start a punish. But that’s on me, anyways.

Played a set against UndeadGamer’s Aria (yeah, I didn’t know he had one either :joy:)

This character just gives me problems. Need to get better about checking some of that float pressure in neutral, as well as playing defense against blade body+instinct.

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Here’s another Jago/Sako set with myself and @CodeComplete85:

I think the theme of this set (which is just the second half of an extended set) is extreme bullying/disrespect. When you watch this one Code, I’d encourage you to think about a lot of the interactions within that context, and think about how you as Hisako can put a stop to that kind of play. Hisako has a lot of tools to enforce good behavior from the opponent - think about the options you used (and didn’t use) that influence that dynamic.

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What I’m noticing is

  • a lack of AAing
  • predictable breaks leading to counter breaks
  • as we’ve spoken about, the over-reliance on wake-up Influence
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If you have some free time, curiosity of this MU and the patience to deal with my monologue, feel free to let me know if my thoughts are alright. https://youtu.be/BvSRbDlmtAQ

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While largely true, what I’m talking about is a bit broader than those kinds of things. Perhaps a more direct way of drawing attention to it is to ask a few questions.

  • Was there anything in my play that showed fear (as in, me respecting a particular setup or option)? Conversely, were there any options available to you that I just seemed to ignore?

  • How often did I “press the issue”, offensively or defensively? Why would I play that way? What could you do to stop that?

  • Did my management of neutral differ or align with my play up close? Why might that be the case?

I got away with a metric ton of pushing buttons when negative, pushing buttons when positive, pushing buttons when it was distinctly not my turn. I challenged nearly every rekka you did. Look at my meaty options, and you’ll see that probably 80+% of them were mids/high. Compare and contrast that extremely loose defensive and offensive play with the more spacing and whiff punish-focused management of neutral, and ask yourself where and why that difference exists.

@s0undy44 - will take a look at your set and provide feedback when I get some time. :+1:t5:

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