The New GG's Thread! (B/c we're so awesome that the last one had too many replies and auto-locked)


#1254

I mean, all advice on how to beat a character is kind of this way. “Just don’t get hit.” I don’t really have any problem with @SoSRaGnArOk’s advice on that level and I’m sure that it’s true. Just hard to accomplish in a match with a skilled opponent. My problem is more around getting her in the corner. Further Glacius has a good corner pressure game, but I don’t, lol. I am not practiced enough with his meaty setups and hail and I am certain I don’t use shatter enough to be a top tier Glacius. But that’s on me. I am an interested amateur player who puts in interested amateur effort. I don’t expect to win tournaments but I’m always happy to get well intentioned advice even if I may never commit enough to use it.

As far as Sadira, it’s a tough matchup and I don’t know it that well because Sadira is not that popular and I don’t get to play enough.

I know, in theory, I should have hail up all the time but if I’m not holding it Sadira will often cross up hail on startup and frequently her widows bite (that’s the projectiles from the air right) will neutralize them.

Hey @SoSRaGnArOk if you have the opportunity feel free to upload the replay. I will try to do it if I get the chance.


#1255

The fact is, you honestly just need more match up experience with Sadira. This truth goes for any match up. You can look at all the charts and stuff, but nothing beats jumping in and getting her hands dirty.

I will upload our fights when I have time. :slight_smile:

The one thing I do remember though was that you underused Shatter (anytime you block an attack and I go to the ground, Shatter should be around the corner). You also didn’t use Liquidize at all. It is a great option to counter jump in attacks.

Glacius is a character that can be used in various ways, but I often find mixing trap and rush down to be rather potent. Glacius though can be hard to use in the fact that in order to truly utilize everything he has, you almost have to be a finger contortionist. :stuck_out_tongue:


#1256

@SoSRaGnArOk
Well Andy shouldn’t jump on top of her, that was more of the term "on top of her as in… “in her face”. But for Omen, yes I want to be on top of her swarming her, or making her think Im going to be on top of her, but either way the shadow recluse connects if Im over her, in front of her, 5 ft away from her. I dont see me or anyone poking her out of it or grabbing her out of it unless it was a luckily poke or grab.
You said her wake up was horrible so why wouldnt I want to be on top of her if she cant wake up attack?


#1257

Not the first time I’ve heard that… (insert rimshot and cymbal crash)

But seriously. I’m having trouble Seraphs figuring out what you want him to say here. It’s probably worth going into the lab and looking at the frames as well as the hurtbox for Sadira starting shadow recluse (that’s the flash kick right?). It’s not invincible on startup but I don’t think it’s reactable. So you need to hit her with a true meaty if she does it on wake up. I don’t think anyone has an aerial meaty in KI but I could be wrong. As I said I’m not great with wake up pressure. But Sadira’s wakeup is generally regarded as among the worst, if not the worst, in the game.

I actually find omen frustrating for many of the same reasons as Sadira. He’s often in the air and his teleport gives him great movement and crossup options. Glacius (in my hands anyway) is tough to use if your opponent is always moving around. And unlike other “jumpy” characters like Maya, neither Sadira nor Omen are necessarily going to need to eat that hail just because they are jumping around.

Both problems should be solvable by me getting better. And if they aren’t, then there’s nothing to talk about.

Winning strategies aren’t necessarily easy to execute, especially against good players who are doing everything they can to counter you all the time. But pressuring Sadira on wakeup is pretty common advice.


#1258

I agree… I was speaking to him to more of what he says I should be doing with Omen. Easy to say coming from a Saidra player that knows her weaknessess and constantly talks about how weak she is but Saidra’s are kicking everyone’s asss across the internet. lol

All of this stuff we are talkng about happens so quick, to react to it is near impossible everrytime as your brain is already 3-5 moves ahead. Some times you get lucky and sometimes you eat crow. But at a high level that Saidra player isnt goigng to do the same thing over and over and just when you think ok, Im gonna poke him out of that shadow recluse, he Shadow blade spins and low crushes your crouching poke. You try to grab and you get a neautral jump, ect… ala RockaKhan lol


#1259

Not if Andy pressures properly. Shadow recluse has zero invincibility, so just go for tight pressure instead of really gappy stuff.

Meaty her properly, and don’t try to float over her head when she has meter. And demon blade crushes lows, so you should never be meatying her low anyway.

@BigBadAndy Yeah, you can meaty from the air. That’s basically what all of Thunder’s safejump setups are, just special brands of meaty jump-in’s. They usually take a small amount of labwork to find, but aren’t too hard to come across/create. Omen definitely has lots of options for them.


#1260

But but Andy uses Glacius, not Thunder. :joy:


#1261

Thanks @STORM179. In that case it’s possible Glacius’s jumping MK could be used as a meaty but with his floaty jump, the extended hurtbox and the relatively quick active frames I don’t think it’s practical. Most of the good Glacius players seem to use his standing HP for meaty pressure. This is something I don’t do and have never practiced. Maybe I will start thinking about adding it to my game.

@FallofSeraphs76 I totally get what you’re saying and when you have fresh memories of a tough opponent it’s always hard to listen to “you just need to…”. Having said that, I find that even when I have tried something a little bit and it hasn’t worked it’s better if I stick with the “plan.” Hail is a great example for me because I often fail to use it when I should. There are several characters (maya, Mira, Sadira, Omen) where you just want that orb in the sky all the time no matter what. But it’s not 100% effective. I will still get hit on startup, get a lot of trades, and sometimes they just hit that angle that avoids it. But it limits what they can do and takes them out of some crossup setplay that’s really tough for Glacius to deal with. So it’s better to at least try to lose with the hail in the air.


#1262

So you guys are saying Sadiras"s SHADOW DP kick recluse…has Zero invincibility? So I can stuff her out of it at any place, anytime, as long as my move comes out first?

Because I always seem to get hit with that sucker when applying pressure. Same with TJs shadow uppercut. That sucker has to be invincible? yes? no?


#1263

Last night I had a pretty weak Spinal player state that I am garbage and the only reason I won was because I kept crossing him up. I responded with a smiley…

Here’s the deal @FallofSeraphs76 a skilled player an take the worse character in a game and still be good. Sadira IS (at this time) one of the worse, if not the worse character in KI. This comes from the pros.

All these means is that she struggles with much of the cast. Now this is at Top Level play, not the level that most of us play at.

I win just a little over 70% of my fights, but that has more to do with my knowledge of KI and my of my character than my character by itself. I can also win matches with Glacius, Jago, Hisako, and Mira.

Just because you struggle against the match up doesn’t make her top tier. She isn’t. Once you know how to shut her down, you can do so pretty reliably.


#1264

It has zero invincibility.


#1265

So why do I get hit when I try to cross her up with jump, back air dash MP? Its it coming out too late? Sadira players sure do use it as if it has invincibility and it seems to work for them all! lol
You would think she would be shouting Sho-ryu-ken!!! When it comes out!


#1266

Everything has to do with priority. You are using a jumping normal against a Shadow Attack. The grounded Shadow Attack will generally always have priority over an areal normal.


#1267

Yeah, I think @FallofSeraphs76 needs a more full explanation. I will try to explain it and then you and @STORM179 can correct my errors.

So, if two attacks are active at the same time the priority system that @SoSRaGnArOk mentions determines if one attack “wins.” This is likely what happens to you.

Invincibility is where there is literally nothing that hits the character. It comes in two forms - invincible on startup (meaning as soon as the move starts its invincible) and invincible after a few frames of startup - normally coinciding with the “active” frames of the move where it has an active hitbox. The former beats meaties while the latter doesn’t.

Sadira’s shadow recluse has no invincible frames. But that doesn’t mean everything will stuff or hit it. First you have to have your active frames and hitbox overlapping with Sadira’s hurtbox before she gets you with hers, or if the overlap is simultaneous your move needs priority. This means that shadow recluse is vulnerable to all meaty moves or anything with invincibility and should trade with grounded shadow moves.

I am no kind of lab monster but this is a situation you can pretty easily go to the lab and work on. Just control Sadira, do a neutral jump into shadow recluse (for timing), then work on what stuffs it for Omen. Turn the boxes all on to better understand it. I’d love to see it myself but I haven’t even had time to record and upload my matches with @SoSRaGnArOk, lol.

It’s probably also worth checking out the stats on startup and active frames for shadow recluse in the guide @Infilament et al put together.

EDIT: okay I did this

Shadow Recluse has 4 frames of startup before the freeze and zero afterwards. You are not reacting to this. It’s faster than any normal in the game and by the time the screen freezes you have zero frames to react. Maybe an invincible move you input during the freeze but nothing else.

According to the frame guide it is also throw and upper body invincible on frames 1-10. Which, for the record is not “zero invincibility” :thinking:. Somebody with a better understanding of frame data needs to tell me whether that frames 1-10 includes startup or not. This will tell us whether any air meaty can possibly hit it.


#1268

■■■■ Andy! Thats some good work there! Id never lab that…I just dont lab, thats why I loose to these situations lol


#1269

Needless to say this is not my most productive day at work ever…


#1270

Shadow flip is high invincible, while shadow spin is low invincible (starting from the first frame you press the buttons). You can meaty both, as long as you pick a move that has a hitbox that is low enough and high enough at the same time (a normal like Jago close MK does this, most characters will probably have one). Jump-ins will probably lose to shadow flip, unless you’ve really labbed the setup and your jump attack is timed to hit very close to the ground during the 4 frame wakeup window, and the jump attack you chose has a downward hitbox.

Any shadow move that is n+0 means no actions during the freeze are accepted – the state you see your opponent in during the freeze frame is the same as the state when the hitbox shows up. So if you weren’t blocking, you can’t block. If you weren’t jumping, you can’t jump, and if you weren’t inputting a move, you can’t anymore (as long as you’re in range to get hit by the move).

Yes when the frame data says “invincible 1-n” that means from the very first frame you press the buttons until n frames later. So if shadow flip is 4+0 and invincible 1-10, that means it’s invincible for the 4 frames of its startup (its hitbox will show up on frame 4, which is the same frame as the freeze) and then 6 frames after that.


#1271

Not for nothing, but you are a darn good player with a TON of playtime in the game. Like you, I hate to put work in to understand the game. I’d rather just play. But frankly, while I know I could benefit from just more experience and time with the game, I would have to guess (considering your flight hours with Omen and your consistent playing schedule) that you are pretty close to the limit of where “seat of the pants” playing is going to get you.

You have two choices. Do what I generally do and just accept that you’re playing for fun and you’re going to lose to players who really study the game. Or else start putting effort into these scenarios you run into and making some more effort outside of matches to solve them.


#1272

Yeah you are absolutely right…and I have the knowledge, and numbers/ spread sheet experience to understand the numbers…I just dont have the time. Id rather play in that 2 hours I have than lab. But you are exactly right…maybe I can build off this conversation and take it step by step from here.


#1273

I tend to spend at least 30 min in the lab every time I play KI. I’m always trying to experiment and find new tech or figure out a match up. :smile: