Should combo command grabs on stagger/wall splat be breakable?

General Discussion
1

This has been an idea that’s been rolling around in my head for a while, and I want to hear what the community thinks of it. We all know the rule they added with air throws and AA throws with Orchid and Gargos where a command grab that leads to further combo opportunities becomes breakable if linked during a combo. After fighting a lot of Gargos and Hisako lately, I’ve come to notice that these characters tend to get a good chunk of unbreakable damage using their command grabs off a staggering opener or a wall splat, which seems a little bit unfair to me.

I’m not all that attached to the idea, but it’s something I wanted feedback on to feed my curiosity.

2 Likes
2

I don’t this could work for multiple reasons. You can tech grabs after a wall splat. The throws are unscaled though. Command grabs are scaled so they don’t need to be breakable. Also breaking Hisako’s command grab in reaction XD It is fair IMO.

3

On the one hand, I like that there are some ways to guarantee damage in this game. I also like being able to enforce guess breaks, and counterbreaks alike. Not all would be affected equally, but that’s okay.

I don’t think I’d mind it off of splats, but stagger>grab should remain as is.

I’m having trouble thinking, typing, and formatting, so I’m quite interested in where our resident smrts take this discussion. Good topic.

4

In Hisako’s case, she doesn’t really get much off wall splat->command grab. The influences in that situation scale super heavily, and if they don’t then you’ve just been reset. Even in instinct, the best she can do is influence->low/shadow command grab or something after, since any combo stuff after the splat is scaled all to hell.

I don’t think it matters, basically. Maybe for TJ, who gets to do shoot toss into stuff like flipout, but even there the followups are breakable, and making the toss breakable would make it trivially easy to break.

TL,DR, I don’t think you really gain much by making a change like that. The characters who command grab off wall splats all have other mixups they could just apply after the wall splat anyway, so I don’t think they’d be any easier to deal with in those situations.

5

Characters with wallsplat and command grab:

Thunder: Triplax ender into command grab. Loses corner, scales heavily, deals less damage than doing CotE ender.

TJ: Powerline into slouder toss. Loses corner, deals low damage anyway, can lead to flipout into crossup, so can work as cashout(wallsplat) into command grab into mixup(flipout). Can achieve similar results with vortex, but right-left mixups loses the corner

Kan-Ra: Whirl into clutch. Mantains corner, could place sand, scales heavily. Sub-optimal compared to regular throw(curse), damage ender or meter ender

Hisako: quoting Storm: [quote=“STORM179, post:4, topic:16613”]
In Hisako’s case, she doesn’t really get much off wall splat->command grab. The influences in that situation scale super heavily, and if they don’t then you’ve just been reset. Even in instinct, the best she can do is influence->low/shadow command grab or something after, since any combo stuff after the splat is scaled all to hell.
[/quote]

Arbiter: Forward MK for wallsplat. Normally this comes out of the combo system, you would need grenades to actually pull this out, making it extremelly situational.

Mira: Wallsplat into embrace. Deals zero damage after wallsplat, but helps her to keep her health. Key in her gameplay

Gargos: Reckoning into devil divide. I may be wrong, but may the scalling in the battery ender be reseted here? I have to test, but if it resets it, doing wallsplat into devil divide-steal meter is a good way to get more meter than ending the combo into devil divide-meter steal

Raam: Wallsplat into dominance. Could be useful in conjuction to Kryll(if active). It can lead into a flipout for more damage, and since it’s animation is long, you can use it to let PD go high during instinct

Eyedol: During warrior, wallsplat ender into PPP command grab. Deals minor damage, Eyedol gets a mage pip, frame advantage, and mantains corner. His to-go ender if he is near the wall and has no pips

Also, normaly, all wallsplat into command grab are long animations, which helps into wasting the opponent instinct if they activated it earlier.

Overall, I’m ok with wallsplat into command grab

4 Likes
6

Nah, I think it’s fine.

1 Like
7

For Thunder you could add a backthrow before the command grab
to keep the corner but then you do add a techable throw in there.

8

He has that option, but since that’s breakable, it doesn’t count as wallsplat into unbreakable command grab, so I left it out

9

I know this won’t influence anyone’s responses, but I want to remind people that I said COMBO command grabs. AKA command grabs that ca lead further combo potential, which applies to the air throw rule mentioned in the OP.

10

The level of scaling on a command grab after a wallsplat is too high to justify making the moves breakable, I think. Even on the grabs that lead to something, the KV means you won’t get any meaningful followup.

As for stagger into command grab, I don’t think nerfing that would really be good in the long run. The characters that can use stagger > command grab practically are hisako, raam, TJ, kan-ra, and gargos. Of those characters, the only one that’s really that strong is hisako, and she’s not exactly reliant on it–it’s basically just a damage boost for instinct combos, and even then it has the drawback of adding a lot of KV. Making command grabs breakable after a stagger is essentially just a nerf to characters that aren’t currently causing problems.

This applies to every command grab usable after a stagger, though you probably already know this.

1 Like
11

http://www.security-geraffel.de/images/Extreme-Facepalm-Meme-10.png

Anyway, I see no problem with Hisako, Gargos and TJ having unbreakabe combo command grabs after wallsplat

This

12

If it can lead to further combo potential, then the combo afterwards is breakable which ruins the point. Plus the KV is already so high so you can’t really go for too much afterwards anyway.

13

I’m just seeing if consistency between air combo throws and wall splat/stagger combo throws should exist.

The general consensus seems to be that it doesn’t really need to happen.

14

I know, I just wanted to point out Thunder has an option there to keep the corner.
Though I admit it adds little to nothing to the “unbreakable command grab” discussion.
Sorry 'bout that. :sweat_smile:

1 Like
15

I would actually agree. I’ve seen too many fighters spam the same tactic. Command grab, stagger beat up, repeat. You could get pummeled and never have the chance to do anything. It’s the same reason we got rid of the unlimited shadow moves items in shadow Lords. No one gets to go into a match invulnerable which is what the grab, stagger, beat up, repeat approach does. Granted there is such a thing as a perfect, but comes with some risk that the other guy doesn’t cash in on like combo breakers and tech grabs.

16

Half true. Some throws scale, others do not.

17

Oh? Throws sometimes don’t scale after wallsplats/staggers? Do you know exactly which ones?

18

Basically, anyone with a “combo” throw (aka, the combo counter, KV, level ender show up just like a combo), those throws suffer scaling.

IE: Cinder, Mira, Gargos, Tusk, ARIA.

Those who don’t like Jago, Thunder, wolf, riptor fulgore basically anyone that doesn’t have a “combo” throw doesn’t suffer scaling. This also includes guts scaling (health scaling) as well.

It’s been confirmed by a dev that’s it’s intentional. But I don’t agree with it.

19

But if you blow out the kV meter your going to deal more damage.

20

Not really. The amount of KV doesn’t determine or be affected by damage at all.