Question about Command Normals as Manuals

So I’ve been testing some things in practice and I noticed that some command normals are usable with manual timing in combos while others are not.

For example, Maya can manual into Back+HP with heavy manual timing. However, Shadow Jago cannot manual Back+HK with manual timing; he has to wait until the opponent is out of hitstun. I noticed the same with Kim’s dragon sweep as well. Further note is that Shago and Kim’s command normals cannot be cancelled off of manuals in combos.

Anyone have any insight on why this is?

Actually, yes he can. However, used mid combo it has a tendency to add massive KV value and can cause a quick blowout if you are not careful.

Not sure entirely what you mean. Are you trying to cancel a special or normal move into a command normal? Or do you mean you can’t cancel off those command normals into a special move?

There are reasons I imagine Shadow Jago’s back+HK can’t be cancelled into a special, namely since on block Shadow Jago is only -3, which leaves him in a relatively safe position to continue pressure in a few creative ways. It’s also fairly quick and hard to react to sometimes under pressure, and because it causes stagger on hit, there’s not any reason to make it special cancellable.

Kim’s low sweep command normal can’t be cancelled into a special because it’s a hard knockdown on hit and leaves her at a good frame advantage already to pressure their wake up, and on block, while it’s slightly risky, -5 on block doesn’t tend to leave her at a huge disadvantage. Kim can also cancel from her target combos into either her overhead or her low kick command normal, which both of those moves have fast startup. So her command normal low kick combined with her special overhead that can be cancelled from her target combos give her powerful mixup options, one of which leads into combo, and one that does not.

There’s a risk and reward to be considered for every move, and since Shadow Jago’s back+HK and Kim Wu’s low sweep or both pretty powerful tools as they are now, making them special cancellable could bring them out of balance.

You mean besides during stagger?

I’m talking cancelling a normal into command normal. Shago and Kim’s command normals can do that.

There’s An easy answer for that…the moves you mentioned are hella slow and their liners don’t have a lot of Hit advantage.

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That’s not what I mean. Whether or not the command normal continues the combo or acts as a reset is irrelevant.

I’m just puzzled as to why the moves simply don’t activate when they are inputted during a situation where manuals and the command normals of other characters work just fine.

In this game, only command normals that have “guaranteed” follow up can cancel in mid combo. Like shadow jago forward heavy kick will manual and you can forward dash cancel in mid combo. With Kim wu, you can manual her medium and heavy punch buttons and cancel them into her dragon kata combat trait.

I think ki doesn’t allow normals to be cancelled into command normal in mid combo unless it’s a character trait.

It seems that target combos ignore these conditions though.

I would imagine that shago/kim’s command normals technically count as special moves (albeit with heavy normal hitboxes) for the purpose of inputs. So, for manual purposes the game doesn’t recognize them and let you buffer them early. Same reason you can’t cancel them from normals in combo–for other special moves that aren’t linkers, that would get you the ender version, but because there’s no ender for those moves nothing happens.

TJ’s diving punch thing is like this too, right?

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Kim sweep counts as special as far as I remembe, indeed. You can cancel normals into it, a property which is usually tied to specials, besides exceptions like target combos

Shadow Jago’s overhead is a special move in every way other than how it’s listed. It doesn’t ignore armor, and Spinal can absorb it. From a quick test, it also seems like it has air special priority.

None of those apply to Kim’s sweep, as it seems to be a regular heavy attack. For the longest time, though, they didn’t have any frame data for it, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they forgot to add other properties like cancel windows on it.

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