Possible Solution To Nerf Fulgore

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21

Apologies if it seemed I was attacking you specifically or anything - that wasn’t my intention. My response was more a general one, kind of directed at all the disparate threads about Fulgore and his balance going on right now (3 of them, by my count). There’ve been repeated assertions in different discussions that Fulgore has bad defense or struggles uniquely under pressure; your mention of Fulgore’s shadow counter difficulties reminded me of that, and that is the sentiment I was responding to. Your observation is not wrong - Fulgore will generally have less access to shadow counters than other cast members. Some of that is due to the nature of his reactor, and some of it is due to the nature of his tools themselves (pips being super useful, DP->shadow laser as an alternative to a shadow counter that might fail, etc).

As to how S3 is different in that shadow counters are generally better however, it’s kind of irrelevant to my point above. Two of the three S2 characters with the crappiest shadow counters in KI won major tournaments last year, without the benefit of meterless invincible DP’s to aid them on defense. Lack of a (good/available) shadow counter does not preclude having a viable or even solid defense - I place Fulgore towards the middle of the pack on how his defense compares with the rest of the cast.

But that argument is neither here nor there. Fulgore is a fantastic character with some weaknesses, and on that you and I are in agreement. How pronounced those weaknesses are is a matter of debate, but reasonable people can disagree on such things.

22

If Fulgore needs to be nerfed (which I do not think he does) then RASH needs to be nerfed!

Im with Sullen on this one… Fulgore is complex enough he doesn’t need to be more complex. If the pros aren’t screaming Nerf Fulgore…well then…he doesn’t need it. Are any pros right now screaming Nerf any character at the moment?

23

None that I know except for Sleep. Not hating on Sleep, by the way, I think he is a great player.

24

Yeah your right I did hear him say Nerf Fulgore! LOL

Fulgore whooped dat ■■■ at combo breaker LOL…but Sleep shouldn’t have switched characters so much. His Aria just wasnt the best that day against Nickys Fulgore

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25

Also not saying Fulgore needs a nerf, but I think the difference between him and Rash is that Rash is being figured out while Fulgore is ostensibly picking up steam.

In theory, Fulgore players are only going to get more powerful whereas I think Rash is starting to look more and more like a gimmick based character.

26

Id rather fight against a Fulgore than Rash any day lol…but thats just me. I just cant seem to beat rash.

27

So, my play time has fallen off lately. Work, family and other things keep intruding. But I’m wondering if there is really a problem here that needs solving. Fulgore is a top tier character. He has been since the day he was released. He sure as heck was top tier in KI1 and 2, but that’s a digression. But when I play online, I rarely ever see one. He’s difficult to use. So, is there a problem worth solving here?

Not to pick a fight with @STORM179, who is better at the game then I will ever be, but I think there is at least some merit in the argument “if he was so good then everyone would play him.” I don’t think Rico Suave and Sleep are avoiding Fulgore because he’s too hard for them to learn. I just think he’s not an unbeatable character. There was a while in S2 when every Kan Ra I met was guaranteed to kick my butt. I don’t feel that way about Fulgore. He’s not a character I see on the opposite side of the screen and groan. Yes, he’s strong. But my personal experience doesn’t suggest that Fulgore has any glaring issues that need to be corrected.

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28

Uhh, what?

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29

For everyone reading this topic this was not to flame or shout “FULGORE IS OP PLEASE NERF” it’s just a possible solution. After playing Arbiter I thought about how his gimmick can get rid of the idea of “Fulgore is Top Tier and best character” He is a strong character and i feel that he is too strong sometimes so instead of changing damage or making moves less safe aka nerfs you simply add a new concept to him in order to limit him. I feel the same towards other characters. Rash, Aria, and Cinder. Rather then hurting the character entirely you change how certain things work that way you have to use other options to use the character.

Again though this is just an opinion and a possible solution.

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30

That was a fairly mild way to pick a fight @BigBadAndy - consider me quite ok with it :slight_smile::thumbsup:

I essentially think there’s a general curve of some sort that compares “amount of effort to playing this character” to “amount I’m able to body the opposition” [Y]. I think that for Fulgore, you’d find this curve to require quite a bit of X to skew the Y higher. Once sufficient amounts of effort have been invested though, I think you’d see a persistent but not overwhelming edge on the Y variable. In other words, Fulgore has a very distinct “learning” period where you’re probably just going to be “competitive” at best, and even once you have devoted a great amount of effort into him, your edge will rarely feel oppressive - Fulgore’s damage is too low to just steamroll most of the cast.

I say all that to say that yes, I do think the largest reason why Fulgore isn’t played more at high level is character “difficulty” (defined in this instance as amount of effort required to be played at high level) as opposed to Fulgore not being ridiculously good. Characters who’ve been popular at high level (Sadira, Wulf, Maya, early S2 TJ) tend to have very straightforward gameplans, and more importantly, the ability to absolutely steamroll an opponent once they get started. Fulgore, for all his strengths, hasn’t been able to just steamroll his opponents since the Great Damage Nerf of 2014.

Fulgore always has an edge, but rarely does it feel like a “I can’t do anything about this” edge. S2 Kan-Ra may have been hard to play, but once he was at that level, he just felt unstoppable. Ditto for a S1 Sadira or S2 Wulf who popped instinct, or for a Maya who forced you to block 4 daggers in quick succession and then hit you with a 50% one-chance for having the temerity to block her daggers in the first place. Fulgore is super strong, and he doesn’t really lose any MU’s IMO, but his game is steady and consistent pressure, not “ok - now you’re ■■■■■■■■ And yeah, I think at high level, “ok - now you’re ■■■■■■■ is what players are looking for with their character picks - particularly if the character requires a large upfront amount of effort to play well.

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31

First of all, thank you for introducing Cartesian geometry into your post. That always makes the world a better place.

Second, we don’t really disagree. I think the key statement is this:

It becomes almost esoteric whether people aren’t playing him because he’s too hard, or whether they aren’t playing him because other characters are more effective. If the reward for mastery of Fulgore is not overpowering, then we know there isn’t really a problem to solve here.

I will try to do better at picking a fight next time.:wink:

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32

No. If he could pip cancel,it would be op. Currently,the teleport needs to finish recovery before able to do anything.

33

OP? No, what I’m suggesting is that unless he uses the pip cancel, he wouldn’t even be able to do a special after the recovery of the move (some sort of like built-in delay) or something. Why would you think I want to make him OP when I’m obviously trying to nerf him?

34

But doesn’t that ruin the point of recovery? If you can’t do a move after recovery,wouldn’t that basically be a longer recovery?

35

I’ll give everyone some hints for some things to beat Fulgore but I won’t outright tell that way you can put in some work to see the information you’re all looking for.

As far as Fulgore’s pressure, it can be overwhelming but, he doesn’t have any block strings that are more than 3 hits without shadow.

His Zoning is limited only to neutral zoning like Jago but is mildly more impressive do to varying speeds of projectiles mixed with his new H Laser but nothing stops any low profile moves from going forward or jumps. Remember, he is BURNING meter to have more impressive less invasive zoning. Patience wins the zoning game against Fulgore. He has to come to you to earn more meter, unless you let him chip you to death then that’s on you.

Everyone is all interested in watching the character when Fulgore teleports. There are more than a few things that change when he teleports. When you face Aganos the camera is panned out to compensate for his large stature. The screen also changes in size to compensate for the spacing between fighters. So there are aesthetic things to look for that are not just on the character model.

As far as Fulgore’s defense, yes his defense is weaker than everyone else in the fact that he is the ONLY character who loses meter in this situation. Yes he can shadow counter, but at a drastically larger price than anyone else, yes he can DP as Jago and a few others can, but much like the others, that can be baited, so that in itself is risky defense so Fulgore really only has Risky defense where others can wait for a shadow counter. A Fulgore at minimum spin speed and only 1 pip will have to endure 20+ seconds of pressure to get a shadow counter, or risk a DP to get out or find an opening to Jab his way out. So a Fulgore on defense is a little more mentally stressful.

As far as High Level gameplay and Fulgore, he is a very complicated character to use, you have to have strong neutral, rushdown and zoning qualities to get the maximum out of him vs having to only have 1 or 2 with other character picks. You are also rewarded with supreme setups that a lot of character’s just don’t have but you will also struggle to get those setups early on without any resources specially if you are pressured early. Fulgore is a momentum character, when he takes control of the match, a good one can and will keep it. Matches can go very fast if you get caught just right. They can also go very bad if he gets stuck with no meter. His damage will be low, his pressure will be a weaker Jago’s, and his zoning will be the same as Jago.

There are not many Fulgore’s out there that are very good tournament level Fulgore mains. I might be good with him but I am not tournament quality yet people still get frustrated by mine. People hate him because they lack the experience to beat him. Fulgore can be played many different ways so every Fulgore IS different. He has a huge variety of play styles and it’s really near impossible to anticipate what type of Fulgore you’re gonna face. Some play him like Jago, and they just get dominated because he can’t do what Jago does like Jago does. Even though their movesets are similar in some ways, they do not function the same. He can zone you, rush you down, split between the 2 if you let him. He is a hard character to face, but the more you know about him, the more you know what spacing allows what setups, and where he might go. Fulgore Teleporting will always be a guess because that is on the Fulgore players control. It’s basically a high low mixup just flipped on its side. There are a few characters who have left right control in a match. So it isn’t just something Fulgore can do. 2 of his 3 teleports behave almost identical to Spinals. The only thing he can do different is teleport full screen in place without covering distance.

36

Yeah, but the issue I have with Fulgore is that his recovery doesn’t seem like a recovery at all, because in almost every case that he follows up his teleport with a DP, for example, he’s not even visible yet. You can’t react to what you can’t see - you can only make a prediction, which means that he’ll always have the edge, especially since he can do a throw mix-up instead. If you block his DP, he starts throwing you instead. If you attempt to tech his throw, he starts DPing you instead. I suppose you could back-dash to avoid both, but his DP has pretty good range, and with multiple hits, so even though you can use it to avoid the throw, his DP will likely still get you in that particular instance (character-dependent). Maybe a nerf to the horizontal travel distance of his DP, post teleport, instead?

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37

I would LOVE them to remove some of the horizontal movement on his DP, then I could DP in the corner FINALLY!!! A nerf that would be a sick buff!! It’s why Jumping backwards when he teleports works in a lot of situations. He goes forward before he goes up. So if you jump backwards, a neutral teleport will leave him too far, and a teleport behind will put you on top of him where his DP is still likely to miss. Yes he can still decide not to DP, but if you don’t press a button, you don’t have a trip guard. He will be too close to zone you, and his only options will be normals and his juggle potential is poor. Overheads are reactable, lows would be expected which leaves only a throw option left which are all things anyone can do in that situation.

38

Or you can hit him before he can do a Dp. Just throw a light normal when he teleports. This will discourage the Fulgore to stop.

39

Before he does the DP? How can I do that if I can’t tell when his teleport is actually done? It’s almost like the fact that his invisibility lasts longer than his recovery frames (I’ll check this in-game just to be sure) on his teleport, but every time I’ve tried that, his invincible-on-startup DP creams me instead, and over half the time his throw does the same thing as well.

Also, why would I want to DISCOURAGE him from stopping? If anything, I would want to ENCOURAGE him to stop.

40

Then by the time you press it,recovery is over. Look at Fulgore. The instant he teleports,press it. It will hit. He is vulnerable even when he is invisible. If he fakes it and teleports in place,fine. You whiffed a normal and his spin speed decreases.