Not every character needs to juggle into their sweep but it’s a common option and some characters have a significantly harder time doing it than others. Dunno why “fixing” hurtboxes would be tampering with things less; a sweep’s hitbox affects only the sweep, while a character’s hurtbox affects every move used on them in a juggle.
If the hurtbox is bigger during juggles it’s easier to sweep without increasing the hitbox on the sweeps. You essentially get the same thing just in a different format.
Oh yeah, also forgot about fulgore’s shadow air eye laser. I’ve been thinking about this…the move by itself is pretty meh (even since they nerfed the damage and changed it to a high move.) I am debating whether or not fulgore should be able to be mega plus after a ISAL after a DP mainly because his meter is more scare then the rest and right not SAL only really serves to keep him safe (only the Instant air version of course. But on the other hand…being safe after a dp…well…yeah.
Conflictions conflictions…
But what is the problem with raising the hitbox on sweeps slightly? It’s not like you’re giving them more range, and low crush moves will still crush them just as well. It’s far less likely to have unintended consequences than changing juggle hurtboxes.
Well “technically” there isn’t a crush system in KI. So that doesn’t work. Merely tweaking the juggled hurtbox of the cast is most likely more beneficial then tweaking sweeps of certain characters. Long term benefits. Since that would not only possibly benefit sweeps but other things as well.
There are moves with low and high invul. There’s no need to be overly focused on semantics, I’m sure you can piece together what someone means by “low crush” in a game with low invul moves.
That’s why I said “technically”. Because for example, SFxT had a crush system (a legitimate one) where it crushed certain attacks regardless of how big or small a hitbox was. Juri’s overhead could “low crush” but it can still be tagged by certain lows with high hitboxes. It was a “low crush” but at the same time it wasn’t. Know what I mean.
Kinda the same thing in KI. Though I’m not sure what the proper term would be.
Focusing on technicalities that don’t actually change anything about the discussion doesn’t really help anyone, man.
Another discussion for another time.
It depends. Aganos’ sweep isn’t “low invulnerable”, so to speak, but for a big part of its startup his hurtbox is raised high off of the ground. This makes it a pretty useful tool to whiff punish every low attack except for (I think) RAAM’s and TJ’s sweeps, because they’re very tall. If you went ahead and made all sweeps taller, you could weaken Aganos’ footsies pretty badly, unless you went ahead and made his sweep fully low invulnerable on startup, which might be kinda weird.
This is a pretty specific example, but with how varied KI characters are in size, there are bound to be more unintended consequences.
Very few characters are actually using their sweeps as pokes to begin with, so I’m not TOO worried about a situation like that, but I understand your point. It really doesn’t need to be a significant increase in height on the hitboxes, just take the ones that are so short they affect juggles (mostly thinking of sadira here but I think there are others) and give them just a little bit of extra height to make their juggles less tight. They already did this to jago and as far as I can tell it hasn’t affected him in any aspect aside from his juggles.
Yeah, but they are always combos. I had understood that the third hit of anything in season 3 was always breakable. I also had the impression that his target combos were always breakable, but I guess that’s not the case.
EDIT I went and tested this out and your right. It’s not easy to do and I don’t think his standing HP with 11 frames of startup is very useful. It is a lot of damage if you can pull it off but there’s two places that require pretty specific timing. I’m not sure this rises to the level of something that needs fixing, especially since the damage level for shadow fission is needed elsewhere. I would rather see it breakable. I’m not sure how it gets around the combo system but the shadow fission should be breakable.
They have to be three distinct moves. Target combos count as one move (except for some reason aganos’ peacekeeper TC is breakable.)
Example: ARIA can loop her hp xx hk target combo 2 times before it becomes breakable.
1 Like
You have to understand what your goals are here. Increase hurtboxes can help but also can effect every other juggle in the game either in good ways or bad, its too broad of a change. Sweeps are a little isolated. Every characters sweep is diff and has a different effect for them. Sadira was the main focus of that discussion
Letting Sadiras combo into a hkd sweep adds a whole new avenue of juggle ending to explore rather than just trying to crank out dmg with shadow cashouts or quick rise setups into awkward jump ins. Giving her an hkd is gonna make her setplay A LOT stronger but due to her general dmg and breakers. It won’t be overwhelming.
Well of course. But I believe there will be better things then bad things to adjusting the hurtboxes. As opposed to the sweeps.
You can’t really balance a game around what is and isn’t easy in most cases. You may find it hard to do but I don’t even play the character and I can get it very consistently. The end result of leaving it in is that cinder has one-chance damage on punish combos higher than most of the cast by more than 10%. I dunno where else the damage for shadow fission is “needed.” The chip is fine, but that amount of up front damage is just crazy.
Yeah, to chime in here, what they are saying about target combos is true: they always count as one total move for the breaker purposes (except Aganos, he’s weird). So, like… Wulf’s L M H target combo is treated the same to the game engine as a single normal, for the purposes of breakability. That’s why Wulf can start a combo with L M H xx special and it’s not breakable. As far as the game is concerned, that is just a single move canceled into special.
Cinder just happens to start with H H L (so, two fierces instead of a low-damage jab), and his shadow fission is very high damage. Together they lead to really high damage, much more as a (reliable) combo starter than any other character in the game. It might be a little extreme but I kind of like it, I dunno why. Probably because I really don’t want them to reduce the damage on shadow fission because I really like the chip setups he can do with it, and I like people getting punished for doing bad DPs (just about the only time you will reliably hit with H H L target combo as a combo starter). Maybe they could lower shadow fission’s opener damage by like 10%, as long as it does the same amount of chip.
But yeah, the combo itself isn’t that hard. Just do H, H, L with a steady rhythm, and then quickly cancel the L with the same timing you would cancel crouch jab into a special move with any other character. The manual after shadow fission is also very easy.
1 Like
Maybe I’m just bitter because of how often this doesn’t happen to cinder 
I assume that they could reduce the damage as an opener without changing the chip though?
I want clarity on his fired up state way more than I want that damage toned down, at least.
Clarity on fired up state would be super helpful, yeah. I’m not sure they realize just how impossible it is to see on most stage + color combinations. In fact, the times you can clearly see when he is fired up are much rarer than the times you can’t see it.
I just think they didn’t want to release yet another character with a meter/unique interface element back in S2. It would have been Maya, Aganos, Hisako, Cinder, and Aria (kinda). So instead they tried to put the “meter” visually on Cinder and it just doesn’t work that well.
Yeah they probably could. I’d support, like… 10-15% reduction on the damage in opener state only, as long as chip is untouched. Make the punish combo do 21% unbreakable (instead of 24%) and then 40% with one chance (instead of 45%) or something. It would still be highest in the game but by not as much; many characters can get 19% and then 35%ish with one chance.
I’d be fine with 40%. I don’t necessarily have an issue with him having a really strong one-chance punish, it’s just…a full 9% more than tusk gets? That’s a bit much.
Yeah, oddly I don’t think Tusk’s starting damage is overly high if he can’t wind up st.HP. It’s just kinda average-ish. Several characters can get 19% unbreakable, then 35% one chance (Jago, Wulf, others). I don’t even think Tusk is in that list.