not gonna happen,
Thoughts on the ābit muchā bit:
- I honestly think the changes weāre talking about here are playing with such a tiny slice of the lifeswing pie that thereās no real reason to not just go all the way. If you do the analysis you find that counter breaker games are overwhelmingly focused around reactables, and since guess-breaking is bad already (and people want it to be worse!) itās unlikely that a good player will lockout before the reaction break situation often enough for this change to contribute much to overall damage. This change is about peace of mind, really.
- Even with this change in place, counter breakers will still be worse than TJās auto barrage combo trait.
EDIT: actually, letās go into potentially busted territory for a moment.
An idea Iād entertain before nerfing combo breakers, would be to reset (or reduce) damage scaling after a successful counter breaker. I donāt know how broken this might be, but itād have the following benefits:
- Address playersā woes about breaking being too good by empowering them with a more potent tool to deal with breakers, instead of merely downplaying the breaker mechanic by making it harder or less rewarding to successfully break.
- Make the fabled ātouch of deathā more practical. Right now it takes some ridiculous amount of counter breakers chained together to surmount damage scaling and convert a single opening into a combo which clears an entire lifebar. If it only took two or three thanks to scaling reductions, it would still be very unlikely, but weād be within maybe a slim chance of seeing a touch of death in a tournament setting. Imagine the hype!
I was definitely surprised to see a lot of combo breaker/ PD content. I thought it might be a survey on skins:(
I have noticed characters like Sadira Hisako & Kim delve out massive combos with little to no damage so I am for raising the bar and risk reward for intricately-thought out combos instead of the seemingly start-a-combo-itās broken immediately fanfare of late.
I am still enjoying the game as I play daily
A shift in PD & a dedicated arcade mode with added KI2 backgrounds would be amazing
top that off with new costumes and Iāll
i personally feel its too easy to break right now. i feel the main problem is that alot of medium linkers can be recognized and broken on reaction and the window to break heavy linkers is far too large for most of the cast and finally the audio cues makes linkers even easier to break unnecessarily. i think all characters should have atleast one linker that works like glacius cold shoulder linker. , right now at high level play people just guess on linkers because the odds are so good currently. even if the season 1 combo system had remained this would still be a problem. i think for all the cast breaking light and medium linkers should be 100% guess for all the cast and to break heavy linkers you have to be ready for them like you have to be to break glacius heavy linkers as well as riptors for example.
i also think it would be great if combo breakers no longer restore white life, it should go away gradually as usual, after all your opponent outplayed you to put you in that situation, he shouldnt loose all of that because you guessed correctly. i also agree that white life should not comeback while you are knocked down or while you are blocking. ki is awesome!!! i love it.
i want to also add as a tj player the window to break tremor is ridiculously large. unlike every other recapture in the game its a matter of yes or no , to counter break or not counterbreak but for tj tremor the window to break is so large that there are literally 3 different times to break and to counterbreak you have to know which one. so the risk/ reward is far worse compared to all the other recaptures. i hope its fixed so its more inline with other recaptures like kanras.
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Understood, and I wonāt belabor the point after this post since I donāt want to go off topic, as I agree that fighting games inherently have guesswork. Youāre trying to outthink your opponent and anticipate what theyāll do, but at the end of the day, youāre still guessing.
However, weāre not just talking about trying to anticipate what an opponent might do from a general strategy standpoint. Weāre talking about trapping an opponent via combo and forcing them in to read situation where they must guess. Youāre instigating that and the defender must react.
Is forcing them to guess your automatic reward for opening them up? Perhaps. But if weāre talking about a two-way system, would it be possible to lessen the guess work, which Iāll grant is a player knowledge skill of a kind in favor of something thatās more of a knowledge of the game skill so players can feel a bit more secure in reading the game as opposed to the opponent, which Iād argue can be harder if the opponent isnāt going for the most obvious play every time? Can this be done without hurting the game, and would that be worth exploring?
If not, no problem. I certainly respect your opinion and Iām not trying to be obstinate about my questions. Just looking to pick the brains of some people with a good deal more knowledge than me. I guess Iām just trying to think of something that would help put the people with this issue at ease. Make more people happy, if thatās possible.
As I stated previously, I put all 3ās except for ease of breakers, which was very narrowly a 3. So maybe all of this is just a solution in search of a problem, as I said was a possibility before. But if breakers could be more game skill and less knowledge of opponent skill, could balancing that with a less punitive counter breaker incentivize players of all levels to play the system instead of trying to find ways around it? Or should they just play it regardless because itās already a great system as is?
Just did the survey, but itās extremely flawed in that a lot of the questions are extremely character dependent. For instance, a Glacius breaking a Riptor is extremely beneficial to the Glacius player. On the flip side, a Shadow Jago, Gargos, Arbiter, or Eyedol player loses faaar less in a breaker situation, and has less incentive to go for a long, more easily breakable combo in the first place.
And since there wasnāt any section for other comments, I guess Iāll just add in āfix the god damn controller/stick support already. It worked fine before, and the update made 4 different sticks and two controllers completely lose supportā here.
I find it odd that you say this about Raam, one of the character that can take massive chunks of your life bar without ever entering the combo system, one of the characters whoās frame traps and grab set ups completely shuts down mashing harder than most.
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I donāt see this as a problem. If anything, the fact that I as a Riptor player am encouraged to make hay out of an offensive situation differently depending on whether Iām fighting a Wulf or a Glacius player excites me, because it enriches the game with matchup diversity in a situation where other games would become very rote.
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Personally I donāt find āguess breakingā to be that much of an issue, and this will mostly be anecdotal, but I have personally found that certain player levels tend to follow trends on how they craft their combosā¦beginners tend to start with heavies, mid level medium, high rank starts with light, and above that tends to finally mix it up a bit. And if you become aware of this going into ranked, as soon as your opponent starts a combo there is a high chance you will break it, making it look like youāre just wildly guessing.
Actually Iāve even made it a point to use early breaks as a conditioning tactic, causing the opponent to fail counter break attempts later when I switch it up on them.
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^^ This is exactly why I love the mind games of KI! So many ways to play vs. dial-a-combo. Dial-a-combo can be fun too at times. But I love the freestyle combos mixed with continuous mind games.
I think breakers, counterbreakers, and various PD aspects are fine as is. As an Aganos main, I find trying to build lvl 4 combos at end of rounds interesting, as at times, no matter how many times I strike my opponent, itāll still be level 3. But Iāve noticed my ability to get to lvl 4 consistently all depends on how I started the combo, so Iām certainly not complaining. Iād say I can very consistently get lvl 3 or 4 enders. And Iām talking about end of round combos. During the round, one shadow move and normal combo strategy can get me to lvl 4 without issue.
@Infilament Did you go into further detail on how this would work in that thread?
Even though Iām perfectly fine with how counter breakers currently work and feel, Iād be interested in seeing if this would stop team #MakeCounterBreakersGreatAgain from complaining about the feel of counterbreakers.
Side mini rant - I try to be positive but every once in a while I find myself annoyed at the folks (great players or not) who complain about counterbreakers, which are usually the same folks that complain about āyolo XXXX on wakeup (as they get hit by it!) ā¦ who does thatā, or complain that people can guessbreak, period. Of course it can get frustrating if youāre getting guess broken, but either counterbreak, play more neutral, or reset the combo. The options are there.
Back to topic - If this type of āno counterbreak possible during lockoutā system is implemented (which would/could eliminate counterbreaker mistimings), one particular downside would be that you canāt tell that your opponent is tried to counterbreak you, which ultimately takes away from reading your opponents offensive strategy. Knowing when your opponent is tries to counterbreak or simply that he/she does counterbreak helps you bait them to counterbreak. But then again, simply breaking them successfully does that as well, so maybe this is the mechanic that can continue to prioritize the offensive and lessen complaints!!! (although ironically like infil said - if you value the execution/timing aspect youāre likely against this ā¦ to put in words of others - this mechanic may ādumb the game downā or make counterbreakers more easy to do or ābraindeadā) Hmmmm ā¦ If the alternative is what we have now, then people simply need to learn to trust that the game decided properly identify who attempted to break and who attempted to counterbreak. But ā¦ this is may be least likely to happen when certain players just absolutely know that their opponents arenāt capable of making pattern reads or hard reads (yolo wakeup, or guess breaks).
Agreed.
Iām sure there are, but for Kim, couldnāt she dragon cancel if available? Thereās still a good bit of that PD available when your opponent gets up.
I liked the sound of this initially, but then not at all after thinking it through. Firstly, as LCD mentioned Omen demonic despair and Fulgoreās hype beam, then thereās Cinder burnouts, Raamās instinct, and Mira to an extent. All unique situations that play off the PD system and are pretty balanced (imo) in how PD is currently. But as a defender, itās a huge sigh of relief to recover that PD (and the threat of a counterbreaker can raise the stakes to do something about it ā¦ or not). Secondly, this will basically turn everyone into a mini-Cinder, with PD all over the place lol. Which might be a race to get engaged in a combo a few times to build PD and then do one-chance to cashout. Basically a new type of reset city. From the combo context, I dont think the offensive would risk counterbreaks when they can just let their opponent continue breaking until they lockout and cashout huge damage. And from the character context, not all characters have the moveset or mobility to get in quickly to take advantage of a slower PD recovery after combo break separation. Given these thoughts, I think the current risk/reward for PD recovery on successful break works well for those trying to break and those trying to get damage.
Dang - just thought of three other points but Iām too lazy to incorporate them in this already-too-long post lol or simply think these out thoroughly to see if they make sense or not. Iām just throwing these out because they may be relevant.
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People find frustration in being combo broken, particularly guess broken, usually are getting broken on the first opportunity, which means there really isnāt a lot of PD built up to begin with.
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At least right now, for me, something doesnāt sit right with there being a penalty of lingering PD for successfully combo breaking in the one of the only games that let you break more than 3 times per round. (Especially when itās still a 1 in 3 chance of a successful break. Whereas when you want to use a breaker in MK, you get a 100% chance of successfully breaking.) Itās not like you still didnāt take damage from getting opened up.
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I think breakers are already risky bc if you lockout or your opponent catches on, you lose ā¦ bigtime!
Not gonna lie though, whatever the devs go with, Iām sure will be thought out well and Iāll adapt! 
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For single player Iād like an old school ladder compatible with all 3 season fighters. Cut scene at the beginning. Cut scene at the end. Each character with their own ending. But Shadow Lords is nice. Keep it, improve it. Canāt wait for the eyedol update 
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To address something (I think?) @Fnrslvr asked, I will say that at this point only light linkers and ADās are unreactable to me (and if Iām expecting a light AD I can break it). The medium linker thing can be touchy, and itās not true of all (or even most) medium linkers, but there are a chunk of medium linkers that I can reliably react to. Both of Hisakoās mediums are reaction-breakable to me even online for instance, as are both of Jagoās.
[quote=āIago407, post:85, topic:15857ā]
Youāre talking about trapping an opponent via combo and forcing them in to read situation where they must guess. Youāre instigating that and the defender must react. [/quote]
Iām talking about respecting the two-way interaction, and using all of its facets to formulate your gameplan. It is entirely possible to construct a combo that is more or less unreactable - the problem is āunreactable optionsā are necessarily limited in what they can be, and that overreliance on them is itself āreactableā. So donāt play that game - construct your combos with a mix of both reactable and unreactable components, and be confident enough in your neutral that you are okay with being broken in those moments the opponent chooses to reaction break.
Simple point that holds a lot of power: a break of a light linker is a guess, full stop. Accordingly, anytime an opponent breaks one of my light linkers, I now know that he is guessing. That is a powerful data point, and now I can construct my combos with the idea in mind that my opponent is willing to guess within my combo. So now Iām going to do lights, yes, but Iām also going to throw in heavy linkers too, because I want him to make that guess again, and when he does I am going to hurt him for it. I use enough unreactable tricks within my combo that yes, you might need to do some guessing to get out of one, but I also use enough reactable options that if you mess up on that guess, I will be able to confirm the lockout and the damage. Both options have their place, and both options are at their best when youāre mixing and matching between the two. The offensive player is not some lamb who is helpless to the vagaries of the mash breakers of the universe - he has the tools to make wrong guesses hurt.
To the extent that I understand your point, I suppose? @Fnrslvr 's āno fault counterbreakerā was an interesting idea when I first heard it, and I still think thatās true. But I also think that āknowledge of the playerā skills are inherently more compelling than āknowledge of the gameā skills. Game systems are immutable and rote - if I can hit confirm I can hit confirm, end of story, and now Iāve ascended to some higher level of play. But understanding my opponent, knowing when heās going to fold, when heās going to guess, when heās going to be patient? And being able to apply that to a dozen different players? I think thatās a much more interesting problem. And I think seeing someone solve it is pure poetry 
Systems can always be improved, and KIās two-way interaction has room to probably be better. But Iād much rather solve the person problem than a game-system one. I like poetry.
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As much as I answered that things were on a sscale of 2 rather than about right, I had my reasons - most of being situational rather than over all. Breakers are doable, but thereās certain characters where you have no idea what youāre supposed to break, or the medium/light difference can only be guessed or seen if you miss it and be like āoh, they used mediums thereā. The game does feel balanced, but potential damage for characters like Tusk where he can open you up from extremely long range doesnāt seem to matter - Iāve fought Tusk players and they just still seem to throw out normals and can win by that alone. Things like that break the balance of potential damage for me, but then again, of course, my lack of sight isnāt the same for everyone else, so it does change the game in ways that are unusual and might not be considered as very important.
I wish they adressed counter breakers somehow. I think that player who got locked out and attacker used counter breaker miliseconds after him gets punished, is unfair.
Counter breakers after opponent`s lockout should not be available at all, or should put both players at neutral frames.
I can totally agree about the faster mediums on certain characters. Aria and cinder are the main culprits of this but as far as tusk poking you to death is how he was designed Iām pretty sure and has nothing to do with potential damage cause heās really easy to break once he starts his combos imo.
oh man! if both players reset to neutral then they need to change the announcers hype level when he or she shouts COUNTER BREAKER! cause 2 fighters being sent to their respective corners Dosent deserve a hype shout out. lol
I think that combo breakers difficulty is fine but the fact that some chars like Jago that performs well in mid range can simply nullify the pushback throwing a shadow wind kick and chars like RAAM that really needs to keep close cannot (KR is not reliable for this) makes the punishment for being combo breaked a bit unbalanced.
About the potential damage, i think they should recover a bit faster. As it is now is already dangerous enough to make the player on defense fells like walking trough a bridge of glass, making it take longer to recovery will be a nightmare for the ones on defense.
well, I would argue that white life depletes too quickly, but then again some characters ( Cinder, RAAM, OMEN) would break the game if the rate was slowed. A blanket change could mess up a lot of the balance.
If I may suggest, allow the rate to change to a slower pace when the defender is in a non-reactable state. ( i.e. if the defender is knocked down, in block stun, flip out state, bouncing, stagger, or hitstop.) sorry terminology is a weak point for me.
Basically, If the attacker drops combo and the defender gets away, or punishes the rate stays how it is. OR to make it a bit interesting, if the offense is turned ( defender punishes a dropped combo, the white life accumulated heals faster)
This would target specifically the usefulness of resets, knockdown state, and reward attackers for keeping up pressure while encouraging defenders to counter or get away.
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hmmā¦interesting idea.
Why are people trying to Reinvent the wheel?