Ok so I tested it out in the lab… you can hit confirm and punish but you CAN NOT GRAB. Its the grab that was getting me. Spiral arrow into immediately neutral jump avoids the grab.
Thanks for your help…now as far as the Rash air normal Im not sure if Omens anti air will work. Ill give it a shot.
I dunno what to tell you man, it’s also throw punishable.
Here, I made a video to help. Notice that I record Mira doing light arrow, then hold up. I’m able to both throw her and hit her with an attack.
It takes 4 frames to jump, plus the (-5 or -4, -10… maybe ?) negatif frames, get a good move to punish.
Reaction + execution.
I don’t play this game anymore, but it’s true there is too much air game in KI.
The reason why neutral jumping in KI works even after a move being -1 or -2 is that 95% of the players i meet try to throw.
Stop using throw as a follow up of your blocking (cause it is no punish! and does not get prejump frames) and start using light normals into special as follow up on -1/2 moves or read the neutral jump and do anti air or backdash into trip guard punish.
Throw is only good if you know you get a punish but even then a normal into combo would be better.
The only times i throw punish is Shago Slide and Shago Overhead (for some weird reason a throw is a punish with punishment being shown but the move is only -3 according attack data)
Try back dashing and trying to catch him in his trip guard. Spinal also has his teleports.
Thanks…I think I have figured it out…I hope. Thanks everyone for your help.
BTW- what is trip guard?
Someone else can probably explain better than me, but basically it’s an old term referring to the actions a player can take against their opponent during their landing frames. It depends on whether or not they perform an air normal or not. It’s the number of frames they have to wait before they can block, perform a move, or cancel into something else. Basically.
Zcythe pretty much covered it. A good practical example of a trip guard is with shatter. If you simply hold up, you will never be hit by a shatter. Ever. Even if he times it to hit just as your feet touch the ground, it is impossible for shatter to catch you. If, however, you push a button on the way down from one of your jumps, then the shatter will tag you as you land, even though you never stopped holding up. You would have just been trip guarded.
Basically, you aren’t allowed to block or jump immediately after landing if you perform an aerial attack on the way down from your jump.
some already answered
I give a additional info:
Every jump has pre jump frames and landing frames. I think KI has 4f pre jump and 4f landing .
If you dont press a button in the air you can block (or trip guard) or tech throws upon landing - movement during the landing frames is not possible.
If you press a button in the air a few frames (i think it are two in ki) of the landing frames are vulnerable. During these frames you can not block but you can tech throws.
So when you hear someone on stream say trip guard than the opponent could not trip guard cause he pressed a normal in the air.
Thats how i learned it back in the sf alpha days.
@TempusChaoti @rukizzel @TheKeits - normally I don’t shamelessly tag developers on my post, but I wanted to point out this very nice thread (good job to all) dealing with tech for the game that absolutely SCREAMS for an online practice mode. So much easier for @FallofSeraphs76 to get in a practice lobby and try some of this stuff out than to try to describe it all in a thread. It’s so much easier to test this stuff with a live person than to try to program the CPU.
Pick Orchid. Problem Solved.
/Semi-troll off.
The best anti-air/opener is always Down+HP.
If they always jumps, just punish them with another trick lol.
To add more information to trip guard (that I’m sure isn’t needed):
As has been said, KI has 4 frames of landing recovery always. But if you don’t attack in the air, you are allowed to cancel these landing frames into blocking or jumping (but not attacks or other movement, like walking). This is why shatter doesn’t hit you if you hold up for 10 seconds, and why, say… Arbiter shadow command grab can never hit you if you hold up.
They call it “trip guard” because, in older games, people tried to make you “land on a sweep” and trip you up if you jumped forward from a far distance. If you jumped forward and didn’t attack, though, you could guard the trip by canceling your jump’s recovery directly into blocking. You would activate trip guard. If you tried to attack in the air, though, you would sacrifice your trip guard and get hit, because you can no longer cancel your landing frames into blocking.
On commentary, if someone gets hit after a jumping attack, sometimes people will say “oh got him on the trip guard there!” but it’s an incorrect use of the term, because correctly trip guarding means you blocked, not got hit. It’s kind of a pet peeve of some old school players to use the term backwards like this. A better phrase is something like “oh punished him on the landing frames there.”
I tried this in training, and the move does look to be -3 (throws are actually not punishment, you can hold up and avoid).
However, if the Shago player mashes a button and you throw that button during startup, you’ll get the punishment message, even though it’s not really punishment. That’s probably what’s happening in these cases.
Let me see if I understand correctly because it seems there are two concepts being explained here.
Number one I understand, but is number two correct? And if it is why does the message appears? Is it a bug? Does it trigger the extra damage?
Point 2 is incorrect, throws can trigger “punishment” on moves that are -5 or worse.
Punishment showing up here when you throw someone mashing jab is, I think, a bug. Punishment should only show up if you hit/throw someone who is in recovery frames, not on startup frames.
I think some of that is that people just don’t punish like they should.
Anti-airs are pretty damn strong in this game in the sense that they usually have shenanigans attached be it more damage or a flip-out state or something else. People just don’t use them effectively at ranks lower than Killer (no idea how they are used in Killer).
There are some characters with such incredible air movement that AA’ing is tough, but I think they make up the exception. That said, Rash is a monster and feels almost impossible to AA. Wrecking ball blows through just about everything or trades at worst, and I quite literally have zero clue as to what to do about it.
Punishes don’t get any extra damage added onto them AFAIK, the message just (outside of this bug) means that you caught someone before they could react. Counter hits DO give a little extra damage and are when you hit someone before the move comes out which is technically what is happening here but you are correct that throws don’t receive a counter hit bonus (again AFAIK).
Nerd… 
Block the wrecking ball and then anti-air him after 
With what? As Wulf 2hk is pretty specific since it doesn’t have a backwards hitbox and a (relatively slow start-up). I’ve had some success with Eclipse too, but it is far from guaranteed. Shadow Eclipse is actually guaranteed… but it costs meter so it isn’t a permanent solution.
Further, what about air wrecking ball that whiffs overhead? It is essentially a free way in, no? You can’t jump to contest it. 2hk trades with it and leaves you full screen (not desirable as Wulf), and it puts him right over you for a cross-up. So now you are left with the case of “which hitbox is better”… and that answer generally seems to be Rash’s.
I fought one guy who literally did it over and over. I spent that time not trying to win but trying to come up with a solution, and I haven’t found a good one. I’m definitely not done looking, but it is getting exhausting being told to “just block it and punish” since that is hardly a fantastic solution.
Which eclipse are you doing? I imagine medium would probably be your best bet - it’s got decent start-up and should beat anything Rash can do after wrecking ball, while also doing good single-hit damage. If he presses a button into it, he’s going to lose that trade every time. Does it not come out fast enough? If so, then light eclipse should serve the same purpose I would think. I believe it has a priority of 4 - Rash’s heavy air attack only has a priority of 2 (someone please correct me if I’m mistaken here).
As to the high overhead wrecking ball, that one you should definitely just be able to eclipse on reaction. Hit him with a heavy eclipse on the way down in that instance if you’ve got the time - Rash has nothing that he can contest eclipse with in this situation. I suppose if he spaces it just so he can come in empty instead and make you whiff the eclipse, but if he’s actually trying to touch you then he’s basically SOL.