My Controversial Top/Bottom 5 List

General Discussion
42

Do you value dragons or do you not? Do you think being able to make a reversal safe or doing a surprise approach at + frames is valuable or not? You can’t say “well maybe I’ll waste the dragon, so therefore I shouldn’t even bother trying to build them,” that’s just bad FG theorizing.

You are still saying things like “Kim is easy to break and doesn’t build ender level” but then say “if I end the combo early I have to give up an opportunity to deal 50%”. These things are contradictory… which is it? If an opponent “knows” how Kim works and breaks her well, then you prioritize the dragons. If the opponent doesn’t know Kim well and locks out regularly, then you prioritize the damage. But instead of taking the positives of both, you take the negatives of both (“if I go for dragons, then they would have locked out and I gave up the damage, and if I go for damage then they are definitely going to break me so I don’t get the dragon either”). It’s the wrong attitude to take about any fighting game character, constantly assuming that everything you do is the wrong choice, and it leads to wrong analyses.

I don’t believe this option exists. What is it? You can’t meaty her without risk, you can’t stand out of range and meaty her without risk, and you can’t always neutral jump her because smart opponents don’t always reversal and then they just get a free anti-air (with, say, delayed shadow dragon kick which leads to the same thing as a reversal would have).

My definition of reversal is not a subjective thing… there is no debate as to whether Kim has a shadow reversal or not. The fact that it sometimes doesn’t work based on smart opposition play (but just as often does) does not change the definition or how it applies to Kim.

Yes, and Kim can whiff punish without always using dragon kick. In fact, she’s pretty decent at it from m ore or less the same ranges as Orchid is.

But if you want to put “sometimes Kim puts herself in the corner with regular dragon kick” as a weakness, I suppose you can. You are just putting so much weight on this, as if it’s the be-all, end-all of the character. To me it’s a minor annoyance that can be easily overcome with smart play, especially considering Kim can trade sides with zenpo tenshin and doesn’t need to commit to a jump, like other characters do.

I mean… I dunno, welcome to fighting games? I think there are things Kim brings to the table that Jago and Orchid don’t, but if you don’t agree and winning is all that matters to you, then just play a different character. But don’t pretend this is a KI or Kim-specific problem, since this is universally true of all fighting games.

It says that maybe:

  • Bastfree doesn’t know the Spinal matchup well
  • Bastfree maybe had a bad day, or was trying new tech/experimenting
  • Bass is very good regardless of the character he is playing against

The fact that you immediately jump to “Kim stinks” without first considering the other possibilities (which are much more likely) is disconcerting to me. One 10-0 set means literally nothing, and I think internally you must know this.

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43

Double like this.

You are analysing Kim and her tools from an objective perspective.
Lcd, you seem biased man. You are being subjective about Kim (and KI, and FGs in general). But to make make this analysis, you can’t give your opinions as fact.

Seriously LCD, you can do better. I don’t see a deep analysis the way you break down Kim (particularly). I see… complaints just “because”

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Just for the record, I am not particularly concerned with LCD putting Kim in the bottom 5. KI is pretty balanced, but 5 characters have to be chosen for bottom 5, so maybe Kim is there depending on your perspective. It’s LCD’s list, so he’s allowed to put Kim there if that’s his point of view.

My main concern is the reasoning LCD is using for putting Kim there. It’s similar reasoning as to why people put Mira in bottom 5, actually. “Every time I get in, I just get broken and lose all the life I used to approach” is this consistent double-negative approach that only looks at the drawbacks without looking at the positives. And when people bring up the positives, they are downplayed or ignored (“I won’t counter break and capitalize with Mira’s best-in-game damage because it’s risky”).

The worst part about this is that it tends to lead to poor perspectives on game balance in general. A suggestion I’ve seen floating around from people who think Mira is bad is to give her a partial or full refund on the silver life she spent to get in if she is combo broken. But because people only look at the negatives without looking at the positives, this suggestion is beyond crazy because, yes, it removes or softens some of the negatives but huuuugely buffs the positives in ways that these people aren’t considering. It doesn’t create a balanced game that is good for all players of all characters.

That’s why I’m trying to step up and challenge some of these ideas… not so much because I’m bothered by Kim being a bottom 5 character, but because constantly stressing negatives instead of positives, and analyzing risk/reward purely from “what’s the worst that can happen” leads to wrong conclusions about every character and game system. It’s why people are so hesitant to counter breaker, why people consistently value 1-chance over all other combo opportunities, and why KI is still such a young, under-explored game in comparison to its peers.

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45

Agree.

I don’t agree with him about some characters, and of course everyone has a different opinion, and that’s OK

But the reasoning to get that conclusions is IMO flawed, so I do agree with you about “challenging” his ideas and how he reaches his conclusions, not “the conclusion” itself

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Well when you’re talking about bad characters or tier lists isnt it common to talk about negatives? Every character has positives and that is usually a given. I’m not gonna waste time talking about positives for a character I think is bottom 5 right, the point is to explain why I arrived to that specific reasoning. This is why I only said good things about the characters in my top5 list haha. I hope that made sense.

I actually think KI is in a pretty good balanced spot after 3.4 but again its very hard to make a list like this because there will always be someone who disagrees and points out all the amazing things such a such character can do, but again I reiterate someone has to be at the top and there has to be someone at the bottom.

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That’s a pretty terrible way to discuss any character. If all you do is talk about negatives you can talk about any character like they’re the worst in the game.

Ken’s normals are stubby! He can’t use v-trigger from neutral! His v-skill is just a gimmick! Counter hit meaties can prevent him from comboing! His overheads don’t lead to anything! His fireball is so unsafe! Heavy tatsu doesn’t combo consistently!

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For me I feel that a lot of Kim’s tools have built in weakness that seem weird on a design standpoint. Some are justified (2-hit specials that can be SC even between the hits but safe or plus on block) while others make no sense or incentives to use the move (shadow firecracker is slower and easier to combo-break, does the same damage as s.dragon dance for easier damage during lockout but can trick people for a dragon cancel).

Players sometimes have to take additional risks to fix some of her weakness (dragon grasp to fix her damage ender losing earned space) or trade damage to hide her SC weakness. Some of her tools don’t have consistent rules (dragon cancel everything… except whiff d.counter, d.cannon and df.hk) and some of her tools seem not worth using during their most effective time.

(d.counter can whiff on everyone’s normal’s and be punished by the same normal except wulf, t.j , maya and cinder.)

(firecracker reflects are poor by being too slow to punished someone reflected at their intended range at mid-screen and too fast to be followed behind like Jago’s l.fireball, plus dragons do poor damage and often are not worth risking being hit or trade with the projectile itself. perhaps if firecracker reflects the projectile itself and not the dragon?)

This also goes in hand with combo gates on her to justify her big damage (or lackluster firecracker ender effects)

  • Linkers scaling per hit, firecracker linker being slower, easier to read due to effects, does same damage as dd linker but allows for one more AD?
  • Air counter-breakers massive scaling glitch
  • Dragon grasp adding big kv and adds scaling (justified in my opinion)

Too many weird nuances to justify damage and d.cancels in my opinion. All of the numerical buff would feel useless if the tools themselves can’t be count on for the job. I feel if they give QOL buffs while nerfing her damage ender then she can become a character that would having fun playing while making her overbearing. She’s good on paper, just needs better consistences in her tools.

Also make firecracker useful.

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And to do this, you have to explain her negatives AND her positives. To show how and why the negatives outweigh the positives. Otherwise, it just looks like your complaining, and giving a biased view. I’m not saying that’s true in this case. Just trying to help with your deductive reasoning. Also, talking about the positives in a more open format like these lists, along with the negatives, doesn’t deter as many people from playing those characters. People who just lurk and read the top players’ thoughts.

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I can understand that. Will keep this in mind for the future.

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51

I use shadow firecracker in combos over shadow dragon dance because it makes it more easy (or at least more interesting) to play the counter breaker mind game. Because, you know, that exists.

Firecracker reflects are meant to be anti-zoning tools, not mid-screen counters. They work to make sure characters can’t set up offense ahead of time (Cinder bombs and Mira bats especially). Also, I’m pretty sure there’s no projectile that she’s capable of reflecting that causes stagger, so I often prefer dragons over anything else because I can dragon cancel and combo after.

Wouldn’t really consider dragon grasp during combos a risk. It is incredibly tricky to break from my experience.

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And he is often considered Top 5 XD (sometimes just 1 below)

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So when I think top and bottom I think tier lists and when i think tier lists I think matchups favorable and unfavorable.

I’m willing to accept that fulgore has no bad matchups as such it makes him a top character.

What’s interesting to me is I think by this logic RAAM would probably take the cake as a bottom 5 character. I love the character, and enjoy playing but I think he really struggles in some match ups. Nothing crazy unwinnable (this game is blessed with not really having any of those) but some def unfavorable matchups. So I ask why isn’t he hitting bottom 5 on anybodies list?

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Good point. If not having ANY bad match ups makes you the best character in the game, then certainly having the MOST bad match ups (RAAM, Kan Ra?) makes a character bottom tier.

Anyone have thoughts on Glacius? I always root for Sickle in the Pro League/ 8BB tournaments–the kid seems amazing. But he never seems to be able turn the corner and win a match in top 8. Seems like the ice man has some troublesome match ups at the top level of play.

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Maybe because Raam has really powerful comeback capabilites and supreme post knockdown pressure

56

While it’s entirely possible that Raam might be bottom 5, I think the reason he escapes notice is that it’s not like he just has a blanket of bad MU’s or anything. Raam generally does pretty well I think, and probably has a couple of fights that are decidedly in his favor. It’s not like Raam has a bunch of bad fights - it’s that he’s got a few that are just ■■■■-awful. He’s relatively easy to counterpick because of that, but he’s pretty darn capable of taking on most of the rest of the cast.

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I wish the character forums were more active with mains. It would be cool to collaborate a matchup chart based on input from players who main their respective characters and are reputable in playing them. I just don’t think we have the resources necessary for that. LIke I’m sure storm can provide mu numbers for sako, and sonic wu, but who’s a resource for Raam, riptor, aria, etc?

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wut LOL

59

I disagree with the idea of Fulgore needing an extra cost. here’s why:

Fulgore’s spin speed indicates one serious weakness: if you can’t keep that going you’re gonna have a harder time getting a good set up going. If you can keep Fulgore locked down on his pips and force him to get it only via instinct than you can beat him easily.

Also his defenses are ok but against characters like Sadira who’s only counter is a complex F-D-F motion cyper uppercut Sadira can already have web-daggers and widows drop down on you before you can do anything.

I also have to add that using any of your specials also decreases your spin speed as well so you can’t keep spamming your moves either or you’re gonna ■■■■■ yourself up.

Managing your spin speed basically invovles keeping offence and pressure. Sure you can build meter automatically but at the slowest speed it’s like 13 seconds which is WAY to long to be sitting their doing nothing.

Other characters can meter in one combo if you know what moves to do. Fulgore’s meter is build in another way. And that is where his weaknesses are. Playing on high offence and keeping him on the defensive is the best way to fight Fulgore.

Besides he’s been changed enough already throughout the seasons as it is.

I will agree that overcoming weaknesses takes skill the with the players you use. That is truly the only thing that I think should matter. And skilled players can overcome their bad MUs

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I don’t think the OP’s picks are controversial. It’s actually a lack of clear arguments that make things less controversial than I initially expected.

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I think you replied to the wrong person.