Lockout b/c throws

So this is my main problem right now. I’m hating the throw system for being that good. This is due I’m not use to “grab” or at least I didn’t have this problem before in other games I played (apart from those that didn’t have grabs).

This has to do a lot with the combo and breaking system. Since I don’t know when they are going to drop the combo and throw me they will catch me off guard. However if I try to option select when blocking (by buffering) I also can’t get it right. I think you have to hit lights when in blockstun? have tried pressing the grab but may drop the blockstun an easily get hit or even thrown. Can get it after knock down though…

Whenever I think they will cross jump with Jago and then grab (very common) or grab with Shago, Sadira, Rash, Aganos, Fulgore, Omen, SPINAL etc etc etc I have to guess either they are going to combo, use jabs or whatever when they are close to me (or close to throw distance depending the character). And those lock outs hurt badly.

Also people getting away from meaties by throwing is pretty normal. You can throw characters that want to put pressur on you pretty easily. I’ve been grabbed out of overpower which is 4 and came from positive frames after c.lk.

Shoudln’t things in this game (apart from throws, like the eternal cancels from something into something else) be more punisheable? Guessing when they are going to grab mixed with combo system is a pain.

grab on wakeup like they do.

That option is totally viable and real tech LOL

I remember a match I won by wake up grab because the Jago player was throwing instinct fireballs right at throw distance and I saw the gap. I said to myself “Why not??”. I felt bad, but it was viable! :joy:

there is no cheap tactics in a fighting game*

    • provided that game has good netcode and balance team is not bunch of monkeys

If someone is throwing you out of your meaty pressure, then it isn’t really meaty pressure. Work on your timings, and stuff like getting tossed out of overpower won’t happen. :thumbsup:

As a matter of balance though, I think KI handles throws and throw defense better than almost any other game. I love that they are a commitment - it prevents situations like in SFV where Laura can attempt to throw you, you read it and jump away, and then she AA command grabs you. Throws without meaningful recovery make pressure on command grab characters stupidly lopsided, particularly in SFV’s combat system. Backdash and risk getting counterhit, throw tech and risk getting counterhit, block and get thrown, and jump and still get thrown? There’s a reason people aren’t big fans of Laura right now. (Zero meterless reversal options also not helpful here).

This is an only SF4 thing, the old crouch tech OS. That is a SUPER bad idea for KI. Reason being is that in SF4, hitting LP+LK didn’t force you to stand and throw, and is prioritized by a crouching light kick. On block, nothing comes out, if you aren’t in blockstun a cr. lk comes out, and on a throw attempt, it techs the throw.

In SF5 they corrected this so that throws outprioritize the crouching kick, and throws have lots more recovery, so that old option select is gone. If you try it, your character stands and attempts a throw, which will be beat out by fast normals. It’s the same for KI, in which your character will attempt a throw, and if you’re accidentally hit by a stray normal, you may get locked out. So don’t use the SF4 crouch tech to play KI.

Most grabs in the game have a large recovery to them anyway so if they whiff, you have a good chunk of time to capitalize and punish the throw attempt. Command grabs especially suffer from this, that’s why you have to throw off your opponent with some good offense into a mentality that they need to remain blocking and not hit buttons. Once they are too scared to hit buttons, then you’ve created a much safer situation to attempt a throw without fear of failing it or being punished. Smart players will also look for techniques to lock you down so their command throws will work more frequently, like Thunder players cancel into command grab from certain normals that only have enough hitstun to keep them in place, but end just before the throwbox frames become active, but have effectively fooled the opponent from trying to escape the pressure.

Also, like @STORM179 said, if they are escaping your meaty pressure, then you aren’t really executing your pressure right. You’re waiting too late to let overpower go and they are getting you in a throw attempt. It sounds like either you are trying to achieve the full unblockable strength of the move for their wakeup, and can’t get the timing right or you are mistiming the moment they regain control by a few frames.

Also, Overpower may hit with near instant startup, and leave you at good frame advantage, but it’s active frames and hitbox aren’t that great as a meaty, and a simple backdash at the right moment can escape it, oddly enough, even in the corner. Good meaties are active for a long while, and some are really good for shutting down backdash options. Sweeps tend to be good as meaties but aren’t the only viable ones.

For Cinder, I’ve found HK inferno tends to get people a surprising number of times. If they block, I get some free meter and white damage, if they don’t I get damage and a possible combo, and it’s got lots of active frames and good range, usually enough to shut down a backdash. So it’s all about going to training and finding a good option and working on your timings.

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just to clarify I don’t use overpower as meaty (saw many wulfs doing it and it can be scary in certain situations) I frequestly use another normal and then overpower. This doubt comes from some stuff I was trying in lab.The problem I see it’s the move comes out at 4 but it can be grabbed when close after c.lk (x2). It has to do with ranges. If the range is ok then it’s a very bad idea to grab it. It’s something it called my attention when working frametraps in the lab. I don’t hold overpower but when you go from another normal to it there’s a little gap in timing that can mess you up.
I think that my most failed attemps with meaties have to do with online timing. But I’m forgetting how many c.MK (very nice move) I landed succesfully.
But yes, the throwing tech is something that’s hard, because as they said before in other threads is unreactable

Thanks for the explanation =) and also thanks @STORM179

Throws are strong in this game, enough to grab TJ’s powerline XD

I’ve been testing this in training, and yeah Wulf’s MK and cr.MK seem to be nice moves, and if the frame data is right, it leaves him positive on block at +2 which sets up for a decent overpower scenario. However, unless your timing is super on target, there’s a lot of room for error, and it’s most likely your timing that throws you off your advantage. Even still, with perfect timing, there’s 2 frames of which the opponent can react with either an invincible reversal, or backdash in most cases. Alert opponents know Wulf’s gameplan well enough to know how to escape this pressure into and out of Overpower. It’s just one of the downsides to a season 1 character, everybody knows how to counter them by now.

And if you’re not frame perfect, characters with huge throw hitboxes will sometimes scoop you up for punishment. It goes back to trying to scare the opponent into not pressing buttons and putting them in panic mode, so you can use overpower to gain massive frame advantage or a combo. If they aren’t afraid of pressing buttons, you need to build your pressure game up a bit to scare them some more, then they’ll respect your options and give you the chance to strike with overpower.

I can tell you though, if they have grab range long enough, you got to be frame perfect, and against RAAM, it’s still possible he can get you, given he’s got the fastest command grabs in the game. He’s a nasty character who can hit hard.

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Sweeps are usually bad meaties, b/c many of them are punishable on block, and all of them are negative to my knowledge. Overpower is a fine meaty choice - just make sure your timing is good enough to guarantee that it’s meaty. If you’re worried about backdash you can instead meaty with light strings, cr.LK->cr.LK or something similar. Or do a dash through or something.

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Wulf has ways to put pressure, I lab that most of the time XD

But again, tech throwing is another story when being pressured =(

Yeah, it’s a legitimate mixup - you have to guess one way or the other.