Kim wu is too low tier

Really? I absolutely love her visuals and style. I would prefer if this game had more Jago, Orchid, Thunder, and Kim styled characters. I really love characters that stick to using normals and footsies rather than half-screen specials like more of the “flashy” cast.

So do you want equality more than diversity? That’s what I’m interpreting her.

if by diversity you mean ‘only 1 or 2 people even know what the 1 true way to play Kim is’ then what’s the point of diversity?

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Oh. We may have different viewpoints. There a plenty of different ways to play characters, it’s just with the tools they are given, more standards uses are favorable then the desired one. You said Jago can only play one style right?

Well, to be fair if you are not playing at a high level you have a lot more room to play Kim in different styles. If you (like me) play against people who don’t always react to reactable moves, and don’t optimally punish punishable things then there’s room for all kinds of stuff.

Also, I don’t know that “whiff punish” style is all that narrow. But in order to free up some options for Kim you have to make your opponent afraid to do stuff that will cause her trouble. So you lock them down.

I don’t know if you follow American Football, but every modern team gets way more yards passing the ball. But the good teams always start off running the ball. Even when they aren’t getting much from it they need to do it to make the other team respect it. Then they can start throwing long bombs down the field. Those long bombs are reactable, unsafe moves - so you have to lock the opponent down and condition him first. The analogy only takes you so far, but I hope you get the idea.

After diving into Kim Wu this past week (I’m a new player on PC, and decided to learn the ghost waifu first), here are my impressions of the character.

Yes, her normals leave a lot to be desired, and I mean that mostly in their range and recovery. However, they all have specific uses, mostly in terms of punishing at different ranges. HK (and HP, even though that has more startup) are great for punishing moves that you normally wouldn’t be able to. MP is your go-to poke that you buffer into MP dragon dance for positive frames, etc.

What tends to happen in my games, is that it’s all about momentum. Kim Wu lacks a reliable ‘GTFO me’ move, apart from EX Dragon Kick, which whiffs easily, so she’s often stuck blocking it out and using LP to contest gaps in pressure. In other words, you need solid defense to play Kim Wu. She can’t mash out of a blockstring. However, one parry (particularly one off a jump-in, cause it’s a soft knockdown), and it’s suddenly your turn. With her Dragon Dance being positive or at worst neutral on block, you can keep them in block stun for a long time. Often enough to open up your opponent. From there, it’s either a short combo to build up dragons for mixups, or if you get a lockout, an easy 60%.

Despite her normals lacking in the neutral game, her specials don’t. HK dragon dance goes half screen and leads to a combo, making it great for whiff punish (pretty much all dragon dances are great for this, but HK allows you to come in from a range where they usually don’t expect you to). It’s only a little unsafe on block, and pushes them back to make punishing harder. With dragons, you can dash in and mixup.

So, all in all, I think she has a lot of space control in her specials, where her normals are for quick punishes. So far, my hardest MU has been Tusk, because he controls the space I want to be at much better, which causes problems. My solution so far has been to back further away and using Dragon kicks as he tries to close in, which is by far the most unsafe way to play her (results vary).

Whether all this makes her low tier or not, I don’t know. I think it’s too early to tell, because I’m still working out dragon mixups etc. All I know is that Kim Wu fills the role of a footsies/whiff punish character, and that should be your main gameplan. As an aside, if you ever corner your opponent, never let them out and just destroy them. She does that really well, at least.

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All this footsie/whiff punish, talk kinda annoys me. A lot of the cast are good footsie characters, i.e Jago, Orchid, Thunder, Sabrewulf, etc. and they’re arguably better at it than her! Saying that footsies is her niche just doesn’t cut it for me.

Kim Wu needs dragons to be anywhere near effective. The only problem is, you’re somewhat punished for opting to do her firecracker ender (one dragon and crap damage).

I’m sure I’m not the only one here whose gone entire first rounds without even gaining a dragon. Why? Because sometimes my opponent is smart enough to vary their attacks, making Parry too high risk, low reward. And when I do finally get an opening, I’m thinking to myself, do I really wanna sacrifice 45% damage for _one_dragon? No…

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yeah a lot of these people talking about all these theoretical shoulda, woulda, coulda ‘strategies’ they use, while ■■■■■■■ losing, aren’t really saying anything. When I hear from a large group of people who can win with her consistently, not just 1 or 2 guys, then I’ll pay attention. Till then she’s gimped as ■■■■

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I don’t know. I have played some Kim Wu mostly in friendlies against my brother - who is a decent (and long time) fighting game player but not a dedicated KI player. In those matches Kim Wu has the tools to function.

My understanding of the “whiff/punish” archetype that people are talking about is that the idea is you consistently punish people and sometimes HARD in the footsies game. This doesn’t mean Kim is the only or even consistently the best footsie chsracter in the game. Glacius is a zoner but you can make a case that several other characters zone better than him.

As far as success, every characters gameplan breaks down when facing an opponent who is aware of it and counters it. The question then becomes what options do you have.

I don’t have enough knowledge to swim upstream here and argue that Kim is not low tier. But I’m not yet convinced that people are committing to playing her at her optimum style and still unable to win. That doesn’t mean it isn’t the case, but I haven’t yet seen enough evidence.

I do agree that the payoff for using firecracker ender is somewhat lacking. I pretty much only use it at the beginning of rounds, or whenever the life totals are equal or in my favour. It’s basically sacrificing damage for additional options later on, which sometimes is a lifesaver, and sometimes you just don’t get an opportunity to use them.

So yeah, I think the damage on firecracker ender could be scaled up somewhat to help this, but I don’t think it’s a deal-breaker.

Edit: Another, and probably better solution would be to give you the amount of dragons equal to the combo level (max 3), and not touch the damage. This would make it much easier to keep dragons stocked. Maybe that’s a little too good though.

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A lot of Kim Wu’s design decisions seem to center around the idea that her dragons are really, REALLY, good. People seem to agree that Kim needs them, but it doesn’t seem like there is a consensus that the dragons are actually that good - i.e. Kim with dragons is just okay, not OP. Is there something we are all missing in terms of trying to “unlock” Kim’s potential here?

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Until more people keep coming forward with what I’ve been saying since day one of Kim release, thank you thank you @JABANT @Hotsumari @DutchHeathen @dsfsdf @oShift2oVet78

Those who do not have knowledge of Kim cannot argue our points.

I appreciate your acknowledgement gentlemen.

Almost NONE of the Kim Wu shadows I encounter even perform a firecracker ender. Who wants a 12% 34hit combo??? Nor do they dash with dragons.
Why? Because the potential is low to none. Shadow Kims are parrying in blank space, and all but just moving with pretty dragons circling them. You know what the only Ender is? Dragon kick.

But there will always be someone appearing to say excuses and what ifs and ‘I think she’s meant as a whiff punisher’ etc and They Don’t Even Main Kim

I picked up Mira in 2 hours and a month in Kim is a lot of wtf a burning nunchuck flurry just doesn’t lose a medium kick

In a game where the inputs are simplified and combo assist is present its a contradiction that ‘well, you gotta be level Kyle to unlock this characters potential’ ha well ok I’ll choose jago as well and just spam fireball a ranked to get top status too

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Just my .02c on this , but I look at the ‘not playing her right’ issue differently.

It’s not so much that she can’t win being played any way I want and will require a specific play style to shine, it’s that whatever that play style is is so convoluted, difficult and apparently ephemeral that no one has even figured it out yet.

This is PURELY my opinion, but take Mira as an example, she was JUST released and I see people having more success (and fun) with her than Kim. Her play style is almost certainly not fleshed out yet, but she’s still finding some success and the fans are finding fun.

I also feel like a character only working one very rigid way (as it seems like Kim does… So rigid no one has cracked her entirely yet) also equates to a a transparent game plan that’s easy for your opponents to play against. Characters need flexibility in thier game plan. Like you yourself said, you aren’t going to zone with Wulf but he has more than one way to play just the same.

Please don’t take anything I’m saying too literal as I’m just making some blanket points here. I don’t personally know, nor am I qualified enough to know in the first place, if Kim is weak or the next OP unbeatable monster that’s a weird peice of tech away from 8/2ing the whole cast… But I do feel like Kim is an odd duck.

As a newb I’ve been able to hop onto a character in training mode and after a cursory look at the movelist, a YouTube or stream watch of a high level player playing said character and 30m in the lab I’ve had some idea how they function… Kim… Kim feels bizarre

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I do have knowledge of Kim. And I still say you’re wrong. I’ve said why a few times - it’s fine that you don’t agree, but don’t just throw out “these people don’t even main Kim” as some kind of de facto “I win” argument. A lot of the people who have commented on this issue have put significant time into her, and I’m willing to bet a lot of them could crack you or any number of the people on here saying she’s weak.

And Kim shadows don’t play well? That’s a terrible argument. Shadows in general, even for very good players with a lot of saved data, do incredibly dumb things all the time, and the further it deviates from “go in and push buttons” in my experience, the worse it becomes. Particularly patient or thoughtful gameplans don’t translate very well into the shadow brains in my experience, which is very much what Kim requires. In any case, basing any tier talk on how shadows perform is just bad practice.

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I never said I win.
YOU want to be salty and take it personal.

THERE ARE people who don’t use Kim thinking such things.
If you do, and like her, why are you busting black veins trying to argue every post? What does that say about you?

Point is, I’m not the only one, so stop trying to pick one user and create a useless bicker response thread.

I said shadows do not use the FP ender or dash frequently. Read.

Facts are facts I won’t stoop to your level of 'competition of you’re wrong.'
GTFO

Wow. I’ve posted in this 150+ post thread three times (now four), each time trying to argue the substantive points behind how/why Kim is or is not weak. Not really sure how that constitutes “busting black veins trying to argue every post” :confused:

But thank you for illustrating that my continued presence is this thread is pointless. I wish you a productive remainder of this discussion.

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If you were solid in your argument you wouldn’t have to resort to tactics such as returning to beat a dead horse. Just saying.

You aren’t better than the next person who pays $50 for the game, and MULTIPLE PEOPLE are making valid points.
Now it seems you are trying direct responses to derail the thread in what could have been sent as a private message.

What is your point, to try to discredit us? Derail the thread? Don’t be Selfish

Watch Rico pick her up for EVO or KIWC and then everyone will complain how OP she is :joy:

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I don’t think I want to post here anymore. :frowning:

I’ll be lurking.

All I will say is this…

Ostrich Worst Kim Wu NA 2016

RIP Ostrich’s Kim, 2016-2016