Counters, deflects, and parries... Oh my!

Is this where KI is headed? It seems like everyone and their grandmother has 1 now.

It’s all making my head spin just trying to remember 1 from the other… SIGH

I’m cool with certain characters getting them like Kim and hisako but characters like tusk who one for every special move just rubs me the wrong way. If tusk could only parry/counter when he’s in instinct I’d be happier but that’s probably just my salty self speaking.

Have you tried playing him or are you just complaining because you got caught a few times? All the sword moves with deflect windows are slow and pretty easily punishable, you have to be very meticulous about the spacing and timing.

Salty because I got caught a few times when I first started playing S3, now that I’ve played against him a few times I can honestly say it’s not his counters that bother me but the insane amount of raw damage he does, He puts thunder to shame in that department lol.

Oh dear me, whatever made you think I was complaining? :smirk:

…and about Tusk, no less! Please… He’s 1 of the easiest characters for me to beat! I laugh at the fact that you thought that was the case, though. Thanks for that. :yum:

No, I was simply making an observation. Not just about Tusk and his deflections, but about Hisako with her counters, and Arbiter and Kim Wu with their parries (and I might even be forgetting about a few other characters with other similar mechanics). :wink:

What I am worried about, and the reason for making this thread BTW, is that I simply fear that the developers over at IG may be running out of ideas and that there’s getting to be some sort of overlap with the newer characters using the above mentioned mechanics, which are all very, very similar in terms of design. That’s all. :slight_smile:

Now, knowing that, what do you guys think?

I feel like KI is turning into a big guessing game.

It started with shago.

If you get within footsie range of him, he can hit you with that diagonal uppercut thing, or teleport behind you WAY TOO QUICKLY and do it. So every time you get knocked down, you are forced into a 50-50 guess that leads to a full combo for him.

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I call that the dashing DP. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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That’s a good way of putting it, I think. Not too much honest footsies anymore (and there weren’t many to begin with).

@GalacticGeek I was replying to the poster right above me. I do agree with you on one thing - Hisako’s counters are ridiculous. :stuck_out_tongue: Just today, I hit her with Tusk’s qcb punch as she was waking up; there were already sparks coming out, but she activated instinct, then immediately countered my hit. I think there should be a little delay there… but let’s not derail the topic.

That is why i have such a hard time with Omen.

I am supposed to use footsies and well spaced frame traps, but 90% of the game is either played at full screen, or involves my opponent using some HUGE move with crazy range that is a 50-50 guess block for me. Ity seems like most of my losses end with me saying: “when that character flew across the screen at me, i should have guessed high, but i guessed low”.

I feel the same way in a lot of cases. It’s off-topic, but I hate seeing characters close the gap on my Aganos when I try to chunk up when I think it’s safe. I knock them down, but they get up again (as in, the attack I just hit them with is no longer a hard knockdown) and in the blink of an eye, they’re on top of me with crazy mixups or other shenanigans. Characters with teleport (Shago, Fulgore, Hisako, and Spinal), runs (Spinal and Riptor), fast projectiles (Arbiter and Shago), etc. are all able to do exactly that.

This, however, is a discussion that requires another thread, I think. Feel free to make 1 and continue that line of discussion there, if you don’t mind. :wink:

These things don’t bother me, the joy of having your best poke be a projectile normal (aria’s mk) is that you completely negate these mechanics. (Well, maybe not Kim’s? Still haven’t seen one do it at least.)

Speaking of Kim Wu, I haven’t been able to get her parry to work very effectively. The timing’s not that hard (although I would argue that it’s harder than with other characters), but it doesn’t do much in the way of delaying their oppponents, making it, IMO, not really worth doing. For example, I parry an attack from Arbiter’s energy sword to get a dragon, but before I can do much else, the Arbiter (with his reach) is already on top of me with his next attack. I find this happens A LOT with Kim Wu against other characters.

@xSkeletalx Would you like to add your 2 cents here, since you’re working with her for the month (I voted for her in your poll, BTW)? :wink:

Right now, I’m pretty frustrated with Kim Wu, because today’s been pretty horrendous in Ranked. Dragon Counter seems to miss most of the time, and I don’t understand the timing. I’m also struggling with Dragon Cancels causing me to drop my combos when used in-combo, and it’s driving me crazy.

I see the potential, but not the results.

Go watch C88 Summerall stream. I have been playing him, and he has a nice Kim-Wu. (2nd place on the leaderboard a few days ago)

At some point, somebody is going to come up with a list of overblown nitpicks that prove IG ruined KI with season 3, as they did with season 2, and parries are going to be on that list. I just wish you wouldn’t give those people ammo by codifying it with this thread.

Equating a juggle combo that costs surge bar with a “full combo” seems like a bit of a stretch.

If a Shago player wants to try to do this to me all day, I’m fine with it. The risk-reward just isn’t good enough to make it work in his favour: the punish he eats for being wrong hurts more than anything he can get off of a hit.

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Wait. What?

So, far they have not ruined S3, and from what I’ve seen they didn’t ruin S2 either - if anything, I think KI has been a resounding succes, in every season. Where did you get the idea it would be otherwise?

Also, anyone who nitpicks like that is just looking for an argument - you can’t win against those kinds of people, so don’t even bother trying. You might as well be talking to a wall.

You should never be meatying Hisako on her wakeup if she has instinct stocked. We are conditioned to pop instinct defensively, and if you’re doing anything counterable, you’re almost guaranteed to wind up on the wrong end of a combo. When she has instinct stocked and is knocked down, stand next to her and do nothing. When she activates, hold up, as if you’re close she is most likely to try to light influence you into combo. Hisako players are conditioned to react on instinct freeze - we generally want to do something when we activate it, because her options off instinct cancel are actually really good.

Her parry feels slightly less active than Hisako’s, but that’s a pretty subjective opinion and I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to find that they are equivalent. It is, however, 0 on “block” - it returns both characters to pure neutral. I don’t actually recommend pushing buttons after a successful parry unless the spacing is pretty particular, and you should be pushing something fast. Unfortunately for Kim, all of her fast buttons are pretty shallow, which makes the aforementioned spacing thing even more important.

I find I actually come down more on Flutter’s side on this one - Shago does his best damage in juggles, not the traditional combo system. And his dash gives him a left/right/throw mixup, all of which lead him to the juggle state. And if he surged the dash DP’s, good luck punishing him unless you were near the corner or something. Shago is a lot of people’s least favorite character to fight for a reason.

More on topic: I’m not too worried about 4 characters having a “parry” - they’re all very different in use and execution. Hisako is built around her counters, Kim uses it to fuel her resource, and Tusk has a random-feeling “counter” window built into certain normals and specials. Arbiter’s is so incidental to his game that I literally forget he has it when I fight him. They’re all so different that even with a similar-sounding mechanic, they feel and interact quite uniquely with their characters I think. :slight_smile:

Oh, I agree with you. I’m just predicting the inevitable rhetoric that haters are going to spam up the forums with, because I’m cynical and tired.

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So his Okizeme is exceptionally good compared to the cast. Makes sense because his damage output is significantly low and you block one physical special move, he’s punished. Block a surge special, he’s able to be checked/punished (not counting fireball).

If you are in footsies range, then this is where you frustrate him into forward dashing. Because even if he forward dashes, he’s vulnerable and then it’s on you to predict that, much like how Bison is with his dash.

Shadow Jago is significantly weaker with his adjustments this season and can be punished much more easier now. One read/block from you means he forced to gamble on a wake up dp motion.

Ehh, maybe I’m too comfortable as a Jago main. Maybe I’d understand the struggle more if I played more Riptor- oh, she can pick up the punish too. :sweat_smile:

I don’t know. I argued for Wulf’s unreactable jumping slash to stay in the game, and I think that was a considerably better mixup, especially taken in context. Jumping slash might still be the more potent mixup even now. If anything, I think the risk-reward on the “guessing game” that Flutter is complaining about has been significantly reduced coming into season 3.