For those asking the reason why I didn’t include Omen in this review is because he is a bonus character and I don’t think he will be receiving any significant changes going forward if any at all with the exception of maybe a few animation changes. I could be wrong but only time will tell.
Attacking me and saying I don’t lab is just ridiculous. The last person who tried to tell me I don’t lab got rekt in a debate similar to this. Keeping in mind that I had to beat 2 of the best cinders in the world at EVO meaning that yes, I had to lab him at some point. Knowing how to punish flame, knowing when trailblazer becomes not a true block string etc. For the record I know how to break cinders trailblazer because it should be based on Diagonal is light, forward is medium and down is heavy. If you labbed yourself then you know that it’s inconsistent when hes fired up.
Concerning your point of me being Bias, I invite you to read my response to Paul a couple of replys above this one.
Instead of actually adding into the discussion of characters, all you’ve done here is attack me and try and defend your characters from what is honest feedback from my “personal” perspective. Why don’t you provide feedback as well and have an intellectual discussion here instead of treating me like I’ve never played the game before. If you disagreed with something I said then tell me what that is, tell me why, and back up your claim with evidence and facts.
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Since I main Aganos, I want to weigh in on the discussion regarding him.
While his peacekeeper is hard to get out of instinct, it’s not outright impossible. You just need to “fake out” your opponent. Get in the habit of doing something over and over again at a certain point during the fight, and then when they least expect it, put a wall up behind you and when you find the time, grab it. It’s simply a matter of finding the time to use your resource and choosing to use it. Granted this may be difficult if you’re facing an aggressive opponent (such as Riptor) that can take away chunks, but that’s why Aganos has so many great moves that cause hard-knockdowns or push the opponent away.
One thing I like to do a lot of lately is to end combos with s.payload assault. If you do it right after an AD, it’ll hit and creates a setup where you have enough time to chunk up, put up a wall, and then wall-crash your opponent with ruin or s.ruin for massive damage. The best part is that it’s relatively easy to do and you can modify it so that instead of doing the wall-crash, you put the wall behind you instead of your opponent and pick it up to get a peacekeeper in your hand. Even if the opponent blocks the s.payload assault, you’ll still have time to do most of these steps towards getting the peacekeeper. Thankfully shadow meter is relatively easy to get so all you really need to do is start a combo. There are other ways to get a peascekeeper, of course, but I figured this way would be the most fun for you guys to try. 
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The answer to this question, for any interested parties, is “always”.
It is always not a true block string. There is always a (pretty big) gap. You can mash jab between any trailblazer followup if you block the one before it. Cinder has no way to do something that hits you if you mash jab; this is especially true of grounded MK trailblazer.
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Exactly. After the first hit on block you can mash DP or anything really to hit him out of it. It was just a general fact to prove the fact that I do indeed lab against characters contrary to TexAce’ statement.
Yeah, just providing extra info to anyone who is curious.
As an aside, I actually think Cinder will need some adjustment here. I think one of his afterburner options (maybe up-forward?) should come out fast enough to catch people mashing buttons, but the others (down-forward, away, do nothing) should be punishable by mash jab. Otherwise I think, long term, it will be too easy to stop Cinder’s offense.
The reason I choose up-forward as the one that catches mashers is because if you do block, you can punish Cinder after up-forward afterburner on the way down (he can try to press an air normal but you’ll hit him). So, you can situationally punish up-forward with proper patience. If you made the down-forward one the one that catches mashers, you can only shadow counter that one, so there’d probably be very little reason to ever NOT use that one.
Swordsman tells me that up-forward afterburner whiffs on some crouching characters, though… that would have to be changed along with my suggestion, otherwise it doesn’t help him at all.
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As an aganos player I agree that he is a good zoner but not every character you want to try to zone out. I.e. jago tj or kan ra a character you want to hound and be aggressive against since they really cant deal with it. Jago and ra in particular have incredibly difficult times dealing with aganos in the corner
On the flipside characters like wulf or orchid can’t deal with his zoning.
Now onto the mus you mentioned. Against sadira the jumping hp is a good move against her. Maybe adjusting the hitbox on his uppercut so she can’t just leap over it in the corner might also be useful as that’s the only time i really find any trouble against sadira. Maya I haven’t played the fight enough to really comment though outside of diamond i haven’t struggled too hard against good Mayas
Also when it comes to omen i could see them adjusting his light orda shield which might seem small but would help the character big time
I wouldnt say that you dont lab or anything, i think you do and your success in major tournaments kinda speaks for itself. I think you ar bias though, not only in this thread but others I’ve seen from you. You said that Maya is a strong character with some weaknesses which is true but every character has them but it seems to me that you want them to make her almost completely without weaknesses. I’ve seen threads from you asking for a better dp and for a better shadow counter. You said she can be abused on wake up but every character that doesn’t have a dp can be abused much more than Maya, I know Maya dp isn’t the best o wake up but its for sure better than anything that riptor, sadira sabrewulf and others have when they are without meter.
Maya is different because the only thing that makes her good is the dagger meter system. If that didn’t exist she theoretically would be the worst character in the game. She has the lowest damage, slowest autos and linkers, slowest overhead, non-invincible wake-up, worst shadow counter, and loses 50% of her move-set without a dagger. All that is left is good normals and a super jump. The reason why she suffers in all the other areas is to balance the design of the dagger meter system.
Honestly the only thing I want changed for Maya is the dagger meter system to be removed and replaced with an actual damage ender and give her a reasonable shadow counter. All the other areas she suffers in can stay the way they are. The daggers should be amazing pressure tools that force her opponent into getting opened up and not something my opponent should be punished for blocking against.
The argument for not removing the meter system of the daggers is that Maya would lose her uniqueness and to that I say she would still feel special. There are other ways to keep the daggers unique aside from building pips which have special properties most of which are ignored anyways until level 4.
These are just my opinions and IG will obviously have their own on Maya as well. If I was being bias I would ask for all the areas I just mentioned to be better but I didn’t.
While they’re removing systems, as a Fulgore main I’d love a normal shadow meter. I mean I don’t get any meter without being on offense and ultimately baiting a lockout so I can get some auto-triples off. And even then it’s slower than the regular shadow meter. I’d love to be able to shadow counter earlier in my matches.
I’m sure Omen mains would love to do some real damage over having 3 shadow meters.
I’m not being realistic here. Don’t change, Omen, Maya or Fulgore. Maybe tweak their systems a little but keep them, they are what make KI and it’s respective characters unique.
I suggested in another thred to give fulgore a normal shadow meter and keep his current as an extra meter like other character have and use it for hype beam and canceling supers.
That would probably make him too strong. He’d be on par with spinal with resources/tools except with better normals and a DP.
Not really, he has no way to steal the ressources like spinal does and if the devs think its OP make the speciap cancels cost 2 instead of 1 pip.
Why would you give Fulgore access to hype beam (probably the best move in the game) that he doesn’t have to spend any resource on that isn’t specifically for hype beam? He would do huge damage with shadow linkers/enders and then still hit you with hype beam right after?
Or worse, imagine hype beam, mixup, free (unscaled!) level 5 shadow ender. goes into training mode This would do… 11% more damage than just using level 4 DP ender, and would kill any full life bar for the cost of 1 shadow + hype beam.
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Fulgore doesn’t need much for changes, a minor damage increase to compensate for his lack of shadow because of how costly it is to use any of his projectiles to your spin speed. Or, figure out some say to allow him ways to get meter that don’t rely solely on blade dash, normals, and dp’s. I’ve sat in the lab a long time, I always thought, for each normal you use, vs 1 projectile/teleport move, the spin gain or loss was the same, but it’s not. You have to land 2 normals for every projectile, laser, and teleport you use. So the only no gain no loss anything he has is Axis into eye laser. Every other character in the game is rewarded meter for a blocked projectile whether they fired it or not. Fulgore loses meter in this situation and is the only one who loses meter. A because on block he gains nothing period from anyone, and B him firing reduces his spin speed every time on top of him not being aggressive so it’s more or less punishing him in 3 ways for zoning. Fulgore is purely momentum based and even with instinct that momentum isn’t guaranteed. He gets roughly enough to do a couple of setups and 1 shadow from his instinct so roughly 6 pips. It may seem like a lot, granting him max spin speed and all but, that’s all it gives him, no positive frames, no healing, no enhanced dash, no access to resource exclusive moves, if his instinct allowed him to do pip canceled moves without spending the pip with the exception of multiple fireballs, even that would make his instinct more useful than just a meter drop… That’s all his instinct is for, build you meter between rounds or just give you something to work with and that’s it. Maya get’s her weakness covered with her daggers returning, spinal get’s his skulls, thunder his dash, jago his frames and healing and so on. The only one who just gets a big kick in the tush is aganos. He has full access to his instinct as long as a he has 1 chunk to place a wall and pick it up. No it doesn’t regen but, still, there are few uses for his instinct really… I don’t main aganos but I also haven’t seen anything ever amazing come out of it.
I’ll just come in and say that I agree with some things, but not with others. Of course, that’s a given 
There are only a few things that I feel should really be adjusted in the game right now, and they’re mostly just down to personal preference and my own experience, which likely are very different from those of a regular EVO competitor.
-Jago is doing pretty well as is, I agree. He’s very strong, but if you play to your character’s strengths you can wallop him. The health gain is the only concern I have, but that’s a pretty low part of my priority list.
-Sabrewulf is also doing pretty well, though I feel he suffers at range more than almost anyone but Thunder. I think that he should keep his damage, to put him in the same sort of scenario as Thunder where he is very high risk with a high reward.
-Glacius has been an interesting case for me. I’m only just starting to feel comfortable with him, even after trying things since Season 1, though I know he has potential to be really good. I don’t have much experience with him, but I have a few settups with shatter and hail that I enjoy. I definitely agree on his instinct, though. Characters like Riptor and Kan-Ra with multi hitting attacks negate it, I feel.
Thunder: While he’s a super tank with some awesome set ups, he is definitely a slow tank. I feel his heavy damage output and quick grabs are important to keeping him the gem he is, even if he’s hidden.
Sadira: Sadira is a good character with a lot of cool tools, but I feel her once dominant air abilities-which are her sole gimmick- have been outshined by characters like TJ, Kan- Ra, and Cinder who can bring you to the air and back down to ground for some scary set ups easier and damage pay outs. I feel she could use some more unique skills to make her air superiority matter in combos rather than just neutral game.
Orchid: I’ve always felt orchid was the “baby” made between Jago and Wulf. She’s focused on rushdown like Wulf, complete with bad zoning matchups, but has a lot of flexibility and lots of tools like Jago. I think she’s doing well, as is.
Spinal: Spinal is VERY good. Nasty, even. The set ups, the draining effects, visual design, the laugh, everything. He can be pretty slow, but I think that’s the only thing keeping him from virtual godhood. The nerd to instinct helped as well, but he’s still a really power character with momentum.
-Fulgore: The controversial one, yes? The character that by all means should be the best in the game, but isn’t used. All the tools that Jago has, but with teleports and more anti air and high low mix ups, some of the best fundamental all around tools in the game… But he has his weaknesses. His meter gain is really difficult to manage, meaning that he can be quite the kitten under pressure of a good frametrap or block string. and the damage nerf, while manageable, is only punctuated by his lack of meter. If the gripe of meter could be fixed somehow, then I feel Fulgore would shine more. Otherwise, despite his prowess, he’ll likely remain uncomfortable for many players.
TJ Combo: Despite the backlash from the nerf(s), I still feel TJ is very strong and a favorite of mine. Good tools, awesome gimmicks. I will say last breath often winds up being kinda meh for me, but I suppose that’s fair enough.
Maya: Another theoretical high risk high reward character. Her daggers are quite important, more so than Spinal skulls but less dire than Aria’s bodies. She has some cool tools, but is a bit slow despite her agile physic. I remember her being considered OP for a while, but I think that now that she’s had time to be learnt, she’s been lowered a bit in most tier lists, including mine. She’s good, and a buff could be dangerous, but she’s just not a character I’m super fond of.
Kan-Ra: A right stinker this one. Just got him to 50, and while he’s one of my least used characters he’s one of my highest ranked in fight challenges, level, and my tier list. He shocked me at first, and everyone else. He was like the polar opposite of Wulf, a more streamlined Glacius with terrifying traps. The traps are really, REALLY good. The unbreakable damage of swarms, the unblockable long range anti air grabs, the easy recaptures, and the “don’t touch me” g.t.f.o. move. He’s really powerful and hard to deal with, but I certainly recognize his weaknesses. A lot of his best tools can in fact be beaten out by simple stuff. Might need adjustments, but I feel he’s doing somewhat ok.
Riptor: Conceptually, imo, the best character outside of Fulgore. The idea of a FIRE BREATHING ROBOT DINOSAUR (in a skirt at times) just warms my heart. Not only that, but I really like her playstyle. The long reach and the extra protection from zoners is nice. Again, a more flexible Sabrewulf… With some really gimmicky stuff. Unfortunately, she’s really easy to break, it I think there’s still a lot of fun to be had with her. Maybe buff her power a bit, but only a bit. While she’s gimmicky, she’s still fierce.
OMEN: I know there’s not a whole lot to say about Omen. I think that’s his downfall; simple design, “like Jago but random with no do and some Wulf normals” as the common saying goes. The amount of shadow he gets however is crazy, and he can be really fun to mess with. Just not an exciting character to talk about. I think his balance point is pretty solid. If a tad meh
Aganos: I feel there’s a lot of untapped potential in the gentle giant. His size is his best friend and worst enemy. A lot of reach, but an easy target. Chunks are hard to come by, but REALLY good in the right hands. His instinct is a bit underwhelming, imo, so that could be reworked, but otherwise I think he’s in a good place…at times. Certain mashups are REALLY GOOD, others are tear inducing. A mixed but pretty balanced bag.
Hisako: The spooky ghost waifu, successor of the creepy spider waifu. Terror and beauty melded into one elegant form, with awesome tools to rip apart the unwary or overzealous. Counters and stupid good range are amazing strengths, her grappling work is off the charts awesome. However. She’s really hard to get the hang of. Slow walk speed and backdash, and some real trouble if facing a defensive opponent with good spacing and reactions. I’m unsure how, but making her a bit easier to use would be nice. However, I fear that making her easier would force a major balance change, taking away her great high end game. Hisako should be balanced with care
Cinder: So unsafe, but so fun…sorta. He does a lot right, with a good tool kit and great mobility. Yet its really easy to hit him out of stuff. Both as and against cinder, someone usually winds up burning meter only to be beaten out. I think if you made him a little safer on block and maybe rein in the fired up effect to make it proc more often, I think he’d be better. That said, He’s a really good character and can do great work, so it may be wise to let him sit for a while longer.
ARIA: Not sure where to put ARIA. So many cool set ups, so many different cool strategies, but switching/losing bodies is a right pain in the neck, I tell you what. I understand the character, I’ve been using her a lot lately in my quest for 100% unlocks, but the idea of becoming so much worse over time is kinda unnerving. She seems powerful, but much more fragile than every one else. I think she’s doing well. Maybe make some stuff more safe, maybe five her a proper Alegro linker maybe.
-FUTURE CHARACTERS: I’ve high hopes for Shago to be a nice mix up to the Jago archetype. More flashy at the cost of flexibility, but I think I won’t mind. Rash could use some work. Retooling his instinct for sure, make change some properties of his moves. I have high hopes for the return of Kim’s double forward kick and slightly elevated heavy fuukeeken fireball. Tusk double overhead ftw ? Flying tank for Gargos, unsure for possible Eyedol and the rest.
So those are my thoughts. Possibly terrible, but just my perspective on things. I try to use everyone. I obviously have favorites, but I think that we can all have our own cool characters and opinions thereof.
His instinct is underwhelming because you don’t know how to use it, as most people don’t seem to.
They’re always trying to throw it! While that can be useful, you’re much better off holding onto it and using it to punish people for doing other things. Only throw it if you want to stop them from spamming projectiles, to get some distance between the 2 of you, or to give you time to chunk up, if you need chunks.
Instead, try using his near full-screen 50/50 mixup with his peacekeeper - s.HP (which hits overhead and is good for keeping them grounded) and c.HP (which hits low and is good for keeping them from turtling - it’s also worth noting that this move has slightly more range than his s.HP with peacekeeper). Both do a significant amount of unbreakable flat damage on their own, are relatively fast, and can put fear into your opponent, which is something you want as Aganos. I find I can easily and consistently get 3 or more hits with it. If the opponent is aggressive, use his s.LP or s.MP or ANY of Aganos’ s.K attacks into combo to keep them at bay and teach them how to respect spacing - I prefer the combo-chain he has, because you can start with s.LP or s.MP, which is faster than s.HP or c.HP - it then allows you to cancel the chain into the s.HP overhead or into the c.HP low, again for major flat damage, even if they block the initial hit (and if they do block the initial hit, then you have an effective read to counter-attack - if they block high, follow up and hit them with the c.HP; if they block low, follow up and hit them with the s.HP; it’s guaranteed damage).
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That’s what I meant by untapped potential, @GalacticGeek
And it’s not that I don’t know how to use it. A melee zoning tool? That’s pretty great. Is it’s most practical use common knowledge? Sadly, nope. Like you said, most people don’t know how to use it properly…which is ironic, considering that the proper use is as you said, “hit bad man with big stick” instead of the throw.
I admit, I’m not an Aganos main. He’s one of my lowest level characters (42). When I do play him though, the Peacemaker never really seems to factor into my game plan at all. That’s probably a mistake on my part, but oh well.
It’s odd though, some characters have a really easy to discover meta to them, while others seem to be far more hidden. Even some of the more complex and difficult to use characters usually have a “do x to win, try not to y” sort of vibe that’s immediately clear, yet characters like Aganos and Kan-Ra didn’t achieve their full potential until much, much later.
Yep; another cool trick I learned recently is that you can get easy manuals with ol’ Aganos simply by using payload assault as your combo opener; if you’re in close, your very next hit (if done immediately) will be a manual (no timing required) - even better, it doesn’t follow the standard manual rules, so you can hit with a heavy manual after a light payload assault opener, for example.