I’ve heard you can punish the dash. Never tried it though.
Hmm… Maybe if they made it like Maya’s where it only works on hit (and maybe whiff)? Because I think that the juggles and set-ups following the follow ups are a really cool part of his toolset, but I can see where having a projectile invulnerable DP being made safe on block could be a problem. If he’s using to anti-air or close distance, that’s fine. But I can agree using a DP for pressure is Eyedol levels of silly.
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While I do kind of like DP-safety mechanics, the many points presented here and elsewhere have sort of changed my stance on EX-cancelling DP’s for safety. If the ability to make an invincible reversal relies on character-specific mechanics or INSX, I’d hope those stay, but the generic possibility of EX-cancel… maybe not.
I don’t really mind Thunder’s followups, considering they don’t come from the fully invincible DP (meterless, anyway), it is kind of gross that Skyfall can crossup. Maybe that shouldn’t be a thing. And, maybe his EX DP could use the Maya treatment… but I think the biggest issue with him is the crossup Skyfall. That’s messed up.
In the case of Fulgore, does DPxEX Laser require a pip cancel (and thus more meter than standard EX-cancel)? If so, I’d say that’s not so bad. Costs extra bar, plays with character specific mechanics, and doesn’t provide advantage (correct me if I’m wrong). Doesn’t sound so bad to me.
But considering breaks are the bees knees, yeah… DP’s should bear a bit more risk. I don’t agree with SFV levels of risk though. I really don’t like the idea that blocking a DP entitles you 30+% of your opponents life. That’s so wrong.
As I’ve said in the past, I think KI is well over 30% expected damage as a punish for blocked DPs. It might not feel like it because of breakers, but on average over 50 openings, the damage is super high.
Just consider this basic case of Jago punishing blocked DP with cr.HP xx shadow laser sword, doing a one chance manual, and cashing out with DP ender. I can’t test the exact numbers right now, but let’s say light manual = 30%, medium manual = 32%, and heavy manual = 35% (I think that’s pretty close). Assuming a 1 in 3 break chance (if broken, you will still do about 22%), we’re looking at about 28-29% on average if you crunch those numbers. And, of course, if you’re playing smartly, sometimes you will counter break, sometimes you will capitalize on the lockout for 50%, etc. This number will only get (much) higher if you don’t always do one-chance.
SFV gets you 30% guaranteed but games like SFIV also had high damage on average for DP punishes, especially with super or ultra (but even without, a lot of characters were around the 28% or 30% mark, with a followup ambiguous mixup). You can lose an entire character in games like KoF if you get a DP blocked.
It’s just fairly standard to get dunked if your DP is blocked, but that’s fine because reversals are incredibly strong.
It’s hard. He can delay the skyfall(or not), dash(or not), dash forward or backwards…
Some characters can punish all, but when trying to do it online it’s hard.
I totally understand the comparison, and you’ve got a great point. What I like so much about the KI system is that while you can reasonably EXPECT to punish for more, that amount is not GUARANTEED. There’s still stuff to think about, it’s not just muscle memory into a dead opponent. Often in KI you’ll get better than 30%, but it’s possible you’ll get your 22% opening and broken back to neutral, as opposed to 30% flat and momentum off of your knockdown.
Also, I forgot about the brutality that is KoF. I never got very deep into those games, but yeah… you make a valid point.
I think a part of my distaste for SFV’s system is the spectacle of it, which is, admittedly, a petty and paltry thing. I liked it at first… but, like every other aspect of that game, as time goes on, I find myself liking less and less. It hurts me because I’ve been rocking the Charlie for more than half my life… WAAAAHHHHH!!!
But… yeah… I guess I just prefer the way things work here. It kills me that I waited so long for KI. I should’ve just ponied up the cash for an XB all those years ago…
More on topic, I can’t reason out why I was for EX-cancelled DP’s for safety when nothing irritated me more about SF4 & the FADC. Sometimes my heads not on straight, I guess.
PS: I am not shouting my caps. I should’ve just bolded them.
Please, for the love of god, remove canceling unsafe invincible moves into shadow moves.
That invincibility should come with some kind of risk.
Not everyone can punish -4 from that distance. In fact, most can’t.
I do like the variability to it, myself, but then again I also like poker, where some variance gets factored into the decision making too.
The most important thing is; if I’m immediately broken, do I still get “okay-ish” rewards for blocked DP punishes? And I think, with smart play, the answer is yes for KI. If you punish with low forward xx wind kick for 8%, then the answer is no, the rewards aren’t okay, but that’s on the player I think. You don’t punish DPs in SF4 with jab jab strong special either, if you’re halfway good.
And the rewards for being broken also need to be lower than the expected value (because it’s the worst scenario for you, so it can’t be too strong). But one thing I really like about KI is that smart play really matters here. Opening with a shadow gives you a 1 in 3 manual chance and a level 2 (almost level 3) ender. That’s really good for a) avoiding breaks and b) giving the best chance at damage! If your opponent locks out on your hard to break combo, you get the max damage possible in the KI system, because your scaling is low and your ender level is high. You get way more damage than you reliably get in any SF game in the best case.
Anyway, I know some people don’t like variance in fighting games… that’s a personal preference and it’s fine (although, I think pretty much every aspect of fighting games can and should be analyzed with variance in mind, but I digress). After years of playing fairly static fighting games, though, I think the variance is kinda neat and leads to interesting decisions that don’t get tested in other games. S’cool.
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Also, for interest sake, here is the list of characters that can make DP safe:
Canceling DP into “safe” shadow:
- Jago
- Orchid
- Glacius
- Fulgore
- Omen
Spending another resource/special instinct skill to make DP safe:
- Sabrewulf
- Cinder (kinda, technically unsafe still)
- Tusk
- Kim Wu
- Eyedol
- Rash
Mixing up with another move after DP:
- Thunder
- Shadow Jago (kinda but not really)
If I made a mistake, let me know.
You forgot Glacius Heavy DP into shadow hail (kind of).
Also Aria can instinct cancel her’s. EDIT: Oh never mind that’s not what you mean.
Yeah I’ll put Glacius there.
I don’t mean “instinct cancel” (which lots of people can do), I mean “use an ability while instinct is going to keep the DP safe”, like feral cancel or something.
Honestly whether DP to Shadow goes or not doesn’t really matter to me. I almost to never use that tactic because it’s such a waste of meter to me. Why bother wasting my meter just to make that one DP safe when there is other valuable uses I can use it.
However on the subject about Fulgore, isn’t one of the main uses of his air shadow eye laser is to make his DP safe? It’s a pip cancel so it takes more of his meter which we all know Fulgore does NOT get easy so doing it after DP is a risk in it’s own. So if DP->shadow goes away that move count too? I just don’t see much value in doing that move in neutral, unless I’m missing something that is.
You can actually perform the shadow cancel from DP in such a way that makes it like +8.
But wouldn’t it require strict timing? I’m talking about in terms of on average.
It’s not difficult, nor would that matter.
Can fulgore do anything with the plus frames? I think the shadow air lasor pushes him away right?
Yes. He’s close enough for many follow-ups. +8 is a big deal.
the worst part abt fulgore is he can punish you for trying to punish him on his way way down. so he can yolo dp anytime he wants because he knows he can make it safe on the way down. thats why imo nicky gets away playing fulgore so recklessly
I believe what Paul’s talking about is when you do shadow laser right as the first hit of the dp connects. Only one laser comes out before you near instantly land on the ground.
Fulgore should definitely be included in this if they made the proposed changed to canceling reversals. Fulgore always has meter just like everyone else does. Leave his pip cancels alone.