Blue Lockout on Blocked DP's

I would like to propose looking into having a new lockout for when someone dp’s and you block it. We are seeing a lot of players do a lot of unsafe things because you can either A) Make it safe with meter/Instinct or B) You can combo break if they punish you.

If you make a hard read on your opponent in this situation there really shouldn’t be a reason you can’t have some forum of guaranteed damage.

I would like to see say a Blue lockout to be added. Take this for example

Thunder wake up dp’s and the opponent blocks. Thunder get’s a blue lockout, he can not do head stomp or activate any kind of meter while in blue lock out. Instead he will fall to the ground and the opponent can get one guaranteed linker or double. Perhaps maybe 2 seconds of lockout. This is the part we can mold in this discussion.

This would stop characters like Glacius or Jago from doing a dp/puddle punch and then using shadow to cancel it and make it safe.

I believe this method wouldn’t be taking away the two player interaction that we love about Killer Instinct because the wake up game is that two player interaction, you shouldn’t be penalized for making your opponent wake up dp and you block it.

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If you block their DP, you can already punish them, so why would you need a lockout? Besides, if this was added, it would be unfair to characters like Thunder because with it, he’d only be able to Skyfall (the head stomp, as you call it) upon Sammamish hitting 1st - and then it would still be breakable with a heavy combo breaker. Nobody would ever do it because it wouldn’t be worth doing! As for the DP shadow cancel, simply anticipate it and keep holding your block - that’s ALL you have to do. If they use up their meter and get blocked, you can then counter in the neutral while they’re short of meter. And if they don’t use the shadow meter, you’ll still have plenty of time to punish even if you held the block a bit longer.

Learn the game first and how to appropriately counter, and then come back and make suggestions. :wink:

sigh why do we have to start off like this.

There is nothing wrong with engaging in discussion about this without resorting to ad hominems

You are right I can punish them on block but they get the break as soon as the combo starts. The objective is to stop that and allow for me to get guarantee damage because it’s not guaranteed.

Thunder isn’t going to magically become bad because he can’t just yolo wakeup dp. It encourages smarter play.

My apologies if I came off as a bit aggressive - it was not my intent. That being said, you’re NOT going to get guaranteed damage in most cases anyways - that’s not how this game works; it’s not like other fighting games - there’s going to be a LOT of 2-way interactions. Sure, you can limit your own combos if you want by doing 1-chance break combos, but in doing so, you’ll have to open up your opponent more often because you’ll be doing less damage overall. Personally, I’d rather just do the longer combos with mix-ups (risking a combo-breaker or dropped combo), get you locked out, get the damage, and kill you sooner. It requires having to find fewer openers and if you open me up with a combo-breaker, then oh well - that simply puts me back into the same position as if I had done a shorter combo like you’re suggesting. Learn to take calculated and educated risks (by analyzing and reading your opponent) and more often then not, you’ll find yourself rewarded for it.

…and for the record, they can’t break as soon as the combo starts - only AFTER the opener when they do auto-doubles (easy to break), linkers (not to easy, not to hard to break), manuals (hard to break), or in some cases enders (such as when an opener-ender combo is performed, which can be broken with a heavy combo-breaker).

That’s NOT the objective; it’s YOUR objective - and to play this game effectively, you’re going to have to reorganize your priorities, or if not, then be able to deal with what comes your way.

Bad, no; worse, yes - the point is it limits his options (and as of now, the devs see him as a balanced character as he hasn’t received any changes in the last few major updates). And no, it doesn’t encourage smarter play; it encourages brain-dead play where you don’t have to think as much.

Usually with this being a Jago main, Its kinda hard to DP, then use a shadow to make it safe. DP is extremely quick to react to doing a shadow move right after. Plus, say if I did Heavy DP and you blocked it, the only way I’m going to get out of that situation is if I Kara Cancel the recovery frames of Jago landing, into a Shadow DP. And that is extremely hard to pull of consistently. Plus, most people keep blocking anyways if I managed to get a Shadow DP in there somewhere.

@NitroFrost

See, I told ya! :stuck_out_tongue:

So, first thing I want to note is that KI is a game where everyone gets to have dirt, and one with relatively freeform rules around cancelling and whatnot. wrt DP cancelling, Fulgore can cancel a whiffed DP into shadow aerial lasers (and also can do DP xx shadow DP like Jago), so it’s fair to say that some amount of using meter to cover one’s ■■■ after a blocked/whiffed DP is intended.

Your Thunder example doesn’t seem so great. Thunder’s DP isn’t completely invincible, and is used for mobility maybe moreso than as a reversal, so the follow-up is kinda important.

More importantly, offense and particularly rushdown in KI is immensely strong, so much so that I have to question the extent to which a cancellable reversal tips the scales. Worse, KI is a champion of the projectile rushdown archetype, against which reversals aren’t so hot anyway.

I mean, I see a lot of this sort of thing being said about the game: “if I blocked correctly I shouldn’t be punished”, “if I opened them up then I should get to do my combo”, etc. People come here with their ingrained ideas of being “rewarded” for “correct” play, neglecting to consider: how their decision-making leads them into situations where their “correct” line rewards their opponent in the first place; that the interesting parts of the combat designs of many characters in this game are actually the bits that encourage unfamiliar and ergo interesting lines of play and making difficult trade-offs; and just generally where the balance of the matchup would lie without your opponent’s supposedly distasteful antics.

Bluntly, fighting games aren’t about doing the “correct” thing and getting rewarded in kind, as though it’s about a test of pure skill, or as though coming out on top in a specific situation demonstrates better play. Fighting games have unreactable tick throws, 50/50 mixups, etc., situations where you have absolutely no claim to stronger play if you come out on top because you can’t friggen know that your decision-making is right in advance. Most decisions you make in fighting games are educated guesswork and are concerned with maximising expected lifeswing in the long run. The ideas you’ve built up around being entitled to a reward for coming out on top in specific circumstances only serve to distract you from your main goal: to reduce your opponent’s life total to zero before they do the same to you.

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Thunder is probably the worst example you could have used. He has a lot of mix up potential based entirely off of blocked Sammamish. Is he going to land into ankle slicer? Land into command grab? Stomp on the way down? Is he going to cross up and stomp on the other side? Removing all those would nerf Thunder into oblivion. Also Thunder’s can’t wake up yolo DP because it’s not invincible. If you see a Thunder doing wake up DPs just hit him out of it.

Breaking a combo its a possibility, not a secure fact.

Maybe your rival is doing risky stuff because he is confident about his combo breaking skills, but:
-If he gets blocked, you get an opener and get broken, he inflicted you about 1% of chip damage, and you about 7-9% in an opener
-If he gets blocked, you get an opener and he fails the combo break, he gets a lockout and you can get a minimum of 30% punish

In this particular scenario, he always loses in the long term

And if he hits you, then you were n’t being catious and he can punish you… and if it leads to a combo, you can still break it!!

The real reward in KI comes when you place a combo ender after a good combo, not when you manage to open your rival’s defense

There’s actually several things in your first post.

On preventing combo breaks after blocked DP: Definitely don’t agree. DPs don’t lead to much (without instinct cancel, so 2 times per match) and do considerably less damage than the unbreakable part of your punish combo. Most characters can get between 15-18 percent, level 3 on the ender gauge, and only be sitting at about 15-20 KV if they punish a blocked DP correctly. Even in the absolute worst case of a first frame break, you’re still getting a pretty significant reward. If they don’t break immediately and you one-chance it, you’re looking at around 27-30% damage, and if they lock out, you’re looking at 60-70%. This is really scary for the defense and it makes them not want to get their DPs blocked, wouldn’t you agree?

On canceling DPs into shadows: A lot of the time there is a way for you to use your own meter to go through this (such as shadow countering, or using projectile invincible in the case of the non-tight block string DP xx shadow hail from Glacius, etc), so I’m okay with those cases. I would be fine with Jago/Orchid/Fulgore’s shadow fireball cancels being shadow counterable as well (strictly unsafe is probably a bad idea, because then there’s literally 0 reason to ever do it), but I’m just concerned any change they make would ruin some important combos for these characters. If they find a way to keep the combos and make them shadow counterable, that’s fine.

On canceling DPs into instinct: This is totally fine to me. Only twice a match, and most of the time you don’t get any further damage from it (only Jago, really) unless you’re willing to spend more meter and give opportunities to break. You can also bait this strictly by just standing out of range of the DP (easy for Orchid/Jago, less easy for Fulgore).

On allowing meterless attempts to make DPs safe: THIS is where you speak to me. I’ve always disliked this about some characters in KI; in particular, Thunder stomps (or whiff recovery into special move) and Maya dagger after DP. Notice I don’t include Cinder’s fired up DP in here; that is a strict punish that is always the same and never changes no matter what Cinder does, and it is not always available to him anyway. I would love to see Maya lose dagger toss on blocked DP (whiff is fine because of pressure, I guess), and I’d love to see Thunder lose stomp on blocked DP (whiff and hit is fine) and ALL characters (Fulgore, Jago, Thunder) losing the ability to cancel recovery of DP into a special move. I feel it’s a bad, degenerate mechanic that doesn’t belong in the game (and I feel like the Jago/Fulgore ones are glitches). If the developers feel like Thunder would be too crippled by losing this important mixup, then they should look at giving him help elsewhere.

its actually really easy as soon as the dp hits on block just press two punches and it comes out… no oneed to buffer the endokuken…try it…

I don’t think so. All you have to really do his block his “head stomp” attack.

The thing is, not all characters can do what Thunder can do. Like Fulgore who is vulnerable no matter what if the DP is wiffed or blocked until they land.

Instinct canceling won’t always happen but like what? two games?

if I were you OP. I suggest just staying on defensive if your opponent is on wake up, you block their DPs but don’t do anything else just yet until they are unable to do much else.

This lockout actually takes away a bit more player interaction because you can still dominate that player if you block the attack. So once you do, the defender can do nothing about it. This gives guys like Wulf and Riptor and Sadira an even bigger advantage over folks like Glacius and Kan-Ra who already have enough trouble when cornered.

A part of me would be very sad to see Jago lose the cancel into shadow DP on DP’s recovery, partly because it’s flashy; but also because “DP manuals” seem to be the key to some of Jago’s better damage. But also, now that you mention it, the cancel window has always seemed obscure to me, so I guess it could be a glitch…

Actually, potentially controversial suggestion: make the cancel window easier to land, but…take away all of shadow DP’s invincible frames. Even when not used as a cancel, for all I care. There’s basically no reason for Jago to use shadow DP outside of cashing out damage, at least as far as I can tell: heavy DP starts up quicker, doesn’t have a pause, and deals almost as much damage. Shadow DP doesn’t really seem to have a lot more range either, and I’m not sure that’s a selling point even if it does. Maybe the slower startup allows you to hit a specific timing to beat certain moves, such as by inputting shadow DP during the pause of another shadow reversal? If I’m missing something, help me out here.

That said, I don’t necessarily share the view that an overly “active” wakeup is all that bad. It doesn’t seem like letting characters have more defensive options in Killer Instinct, of all games, is likely to be all that problematic.

If you’re talking about DP manuals as in repeated DP juggles, I don’t think he needs the cancel window for that? Shadow DP on DP’s recovery is really just a mixup on how to punish the thing you already baited, and I think DPs really need to be a big commitment in fighting games unless you’re spending meter/instinct before you can tell if the DP is successful or not. There has to be a level of commitment. An overly active wakeup isn’t the worst thing in the world (although I get irritated by it at times), but giving someone a DP is already plenty active in this game.

Jago’s shadow DP is, I think, 3+0 frames, and since heavy DP is just 3 frames, I think they have the same startup. I don’t think the pause influences Jago’s DP at all (since it’s 0f after, you can’t act anyway) and I think it does a bit more damage if you can get all 5 hits, so there are situational uses for it IMO. I guess you probably end up taking advantage of the KI hit priority system by being a shadow move? Maybe that ends up mattering in some cases.

As for Thunder, it was clear that the whiff into special move thing was by design for that character (like I said, I’m not convinced about Jago/Fulgore), but I think it’s kind of poor design. I don’t know if IG agrees with me or not… I guess we’ll find out. Like… Thunder is totally beatable, and there are techniques to handle DP mixups, but I feel Thunder would be a much more interesting character without it and then given help in some other area. Basically, if Thunder was a S2 character, I think IG would get a LOT of crap for it by the crowd who dislikes IG’s designs because of how he bypasses certain aspects of the game.

It’s my opinion and there’s room to disagree, but I just think canceling invincible moves into more invincible moves/mixups (after you’ve seen the success/failure of the first invincible move) is not good fighting game design. For the most part, invincible moves need to be commitments or else risk/reward is thrown off kilter, it becomes a degenerate strategy, and also tends to irritate a lot of players. KI strays from the fighting game formula in a lot of ways with success, but this is an area where I feel they don’t gain anything good.

So, after any linker that isn’t light wind kick, you have enough plus frames – not counting the manual buffer – to link a DP of any strength. That DP can then be recovery-cancelled into a shadow DP to cash out damage. DPs hurt (though obviously it’s scaled like everything else), and since it’s not really bound by manual rules (all of Jago’s regular DPs are active on frame 3), you have 1-in-3 chance of guess-breaking it. If you couldn’t cancel DP recovery with a shadow DP, then your opponent would land before the shadow DP could start up and you’d drop the combo.

I also used to do shadow fireball, DP xx shadow DP before I knew shadow fireball, fireball xx DP was a thing. Still do sometimes, since you can be somewhat out of range for the shadow DP (especially if something glitches and puts Jago further away during the shadow fireball, as is known to happen sometimes), and also because (despite putting down the whole “combos are fun” thing) it’s fun. :stuck_out_tongue:

Most of this stuff is pretty insignificant, and I’m not absolutely attached to any of it, but I’d rather lose shadow DP invincibility than lose the recovery cancel, tbh. Shadow DP is just so unnecessary as a reversal.

4+0 frames of startup, active on frame 5, according to the practice mode attack data. If someone wants to frame through and say otherwise, be my guest.

You’re right to say the pause isn’t a factor, and I guess there are weird situations where priority seems to lead to trades and whatnot with the regular DP. Maybe shadow DP also has more invincible frames, too? It does do a tiny bit more damage if you can get all 5 hits, as you say. But I don’t think any of that, even taken together, is worth throwing bar away for a shadow DP. You kinda have to predict that shenanigans are going to stuff your DP out (which are rare), and in the rare instances where the damage might close out a lifebar, you could probably get your extra damage by cancelling your regular DP into the shadow DP with, suitably enough, the recovery cancel. (Just tested: same 15% damage that shadow DP deals if they have the presence of mind to break on hit 1, and 24% if they don’t!)

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I guess I haven’t really thought about it much.

So, not having to commit the meter beforehand eliminates the outcome where you wake up with a meter-burned DP and your opponent eats for the DP in the first place. Other outcomes include those where your opponent eats your “free” DP; where your opponent reads your DP and eats your shadow DP; where your opponent reads both and annihilates you; where your opponent reads your DP but wrongly predicts a followup shadow DP, and so misses the punish, but maybe tends to figure that out in time to pressure…or not…or you DP again…

But also there are other ways oki could go, and cutting out a (decidedly bad, though not terrible) outcome buffs the relative value of that entire subgame of possibilities relative to the rest of oki. Ugh. What I’d actually really like to do, for each matchup, is to write down a list of all the reasonable things that each player could do on one player’s wakeup, fill out the payoff matrix with reasonable lifeswings, and solve that sucker.

I can see the appeal in cutting active wakeups short at “you spent this resource, so now you’re safe at plus or minus whatever games, so now someone can start frame-trapping” like you do with shadow fireball or instinct cancels, though, at least from a pragmatic viewpoint – that is, even if I can’t see a principled reason why that’s more desirable.

So, I’m inclined to suggest that a recovery-cancellable DP is still a commitment: you’re committing to the post-DP mixup. I’m not sure that I can say that reading the reversal should guarantee a determined lifeswing any moreso than I would say that winning the neutral should guarantee a complete combo punish into knockdown.

I guess the thing that has to be made sure of, is that said mixup generally favours the offense – otherwise it’d probably never be rational to block on wakeup, and hence it’d be rational for the offense to either back off and revert to neutral, or do something like meaty fireball and then apply pressure. Or call your DP and then just anti-air you, but that’s not great. That’s a thing I may need to scrutinize more closely.

You might be right to say that this kind of protracted post-DP stuff isn’t good gameplay, though.

This is cool (and makes sense)… it would kind of suck to lose it, but at the same time, I think it might be a necessary evil. If IG can figure out a way to remove the whiff cancel only on whiff or block (but allow Jago to keep it on hit), I’d be okay with that. I imagine it’s kind of an all-or-nothing thing, though.

This is opener-ender breakable, though, so you can never use raw DP into shadow DP in any situation (including shadow DP after anti-air DP, DP straight up canceled into shadow DP, or any of these recovery cancel techniques). It really only works as a combo finisher, as per your paragraph above, or as a bait on blocked or whiffed DP.

This is why I said my opinion above was open to debate, but my point of view comes from having played numerous fighting games over the years. In the games where invincible reversals can be made safe (or allow for a mixup after), the mechanic is almost universally reviled… it doesn’t really matter what happens in neutral, the game’s pace, or any of the surrounding mechanics. It just tends to be really anti-fun and, most of the time, the characters that can do it are among the best in the game. The only game where it kind of works is Marvel 3, where pretty much every character can do it, so it’s just built into the engine. This is quite a bit different from just 2 or 3 characters being able to do it.

As much as KI swings traditional FG thinking, and you know my point of view on this from many other discussions I’ve been involved with on these boards, I think KI needs to heed the lessons from past FGs on this one. Maya lost invincible DP into dagger mixup in one of the first S2 patches, because it was super degenerate (even though the offense COULD win that mixup with a hard read or a very strong reaction).

There are certain “choke points” in a match where you need to force penalties on players who make “mistakes”; depending on the game, what a “mistake” is can be defined differently, and in KI, your penalty is being shoved into the combo engine grinder in the worst possible situation, with low KV and high unbreakable starter (rather than a set combo for a set amount of life), but games that try to allow players to undo a fast, invincible reversal as a “mistake” tend to be poorer off for it than they would be otherwise.

what about fulgores air lazer barrage? fulgore is already bottom tier maybe higher depending on his user. this move after a DP was very much needed by fulgore. he’s been nerfed and reworked more than any other character, enough already.
look it’s in between seasons and just because it’s players are declining, people panic and suddenly scream the game is in trouble and it needs an over haul. just stop already. if all you want is free damage without risk go play something else.

Fulgore bottom tier? No, I don’t think so… He has so many effective tools, mixups, and meter options, it’s ridiculous.

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My point was that even if they break the shadow DP “ender” as early as possible, they still eat a total of 15% (unless it picks up a counter-hit…I should test that), so in the rare circumstance where you want that snippet of extra damage to close out a lifebar, it’s still available for the same outlay of meter off of a regular DP.

Don’t get me wrong, I am coming around on this. As I noted previously, I’m trying to figure out why the recovery cancel isn’t super good and being used all the time. (Granted on hard knockdown you’re eating a projectile/hail/grenade/flame carpet/dash-through mixup from a lot of the cast, but I’m not sure how much of that matters on soft knockdown and/or away from a corner.) Obviously if an invincible reversal, a move which trumps most wakeup options from the aggressor, doesn’t make you substantially worse-off when baited, then it’s going to make up a substantial chunk of any good mixed strategy on wakeup, and that would typically mean the aggressor would be better served just backing off, because in an expected sense the wakeup game is actually pretty bad for them.

But I also appreciate the usage of quote marks around “mistakes”. I’ve become less and less of a fan of the whole “getting rewarded for being correct, getting punished for making mistakes” abstraction when talking about fighting games, largely because I think it makes newcomers (and maybe even some wrong-minded veterans) think that players are making missteps deterministically, in execution or as a failure of reactions or awareness, and that each such “mistake” is literally a mistake in that very moment which should reward the other player (if you buy into that as a newcomer, then you simply can’t learn to play fighting games at all); but also because I see players stubbornly clinging to biases derived from holding up this abstraction as gospel, and using it to push for principles to be enforced in KI which are at best unsuited to the game, and at worst tired old relics of fighting games’ past that should be discarded.

I guess what I’m really saying is, I want everyone in the FGC to go on a Less Wrong binge, and come back talking about being bounded rationalists who seek to maximize expected utility.

Or maybe not. That might be weird and slightly problematic in some ways, too.

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yea there’s some good traits. like his dash opener almost being impossible to punish and when he does get meter he technically gets 2 and a half bars. teleport game is solid. my point was that if these suggestions are implemented that could have consequences as a result. like taking out fulgores lazer barrage after a whiffed DP? or more frame specific like popping a shadow or instinct on a DP hit confirm

if it’s the DP cancel into “whatever” I call trash on that two cause some of my fulgore juggles are H lazer instinct into H lazer into shadow plasma into H lazer-shadow plasma- med teleport to get close then H DP.
…and then a counter breaker cause apparently I have bigger balls than these cry baby top tier players lol. serious tho lol