Aganos Horrendous MU no one speaks of

Am I the only person who feels as though Aganos gets destroyed by Hisako? She can literally go round his armor with no problem by using her parry. She also has a ridiculously fast command grab that can lead to a combo and also by passes his armor. Am I missing something?

As a Hisako main, I would disagree.

Well, she can do this to pretty much anyone, predicated on them pressing buttons predictably. I don’t think this is a condition specific to this MU.

This sounds good on paper but can be rough in practice. Aganos has a far superior throw range, and great buttons, so Hisako getting in close enough to pop that command grab is a risky proposition. To be fair, her command grab is throw invulnerable, but to beat a throw Hisako should use the heavy version of her grab, which is definitely not “ridiculously fast” (compared to the light version, which is likely what you’re referring to).

I’m definitely not saying that this is a rough match-up for Hisako, but I don’t think it’s at all hopeless for Aganos.

@LeoFerreis - Maybe this is a good time to bust out that Hisako MU description we spoke of weeks ago? I’d be happy to port it to my impending Hisako/Aganos MU thread in the future.

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I think you should. It would be very helpful. And the way Leo structured it, makes it viable for anyone. :slight_smile:

What I mean by the first part is that a strong point for aganos is that he can have up to 4 hits of armor on any move. In most situations every character has to take out these rocks if they want to open him up, but she doesn’t have to. She can just by pass it, while most characters have to fight through it. I do agree with you on the command grab part. It is very dangerous to go for because he is so damaging and being up close against him, only optimizes that incredible amount of damage he can do to her.

Ah, I gotcha :smiley:

Though her catch-counter isn’t really a means of bypassing his armor; if you think about it, it’s not really a strike. In order for it to benefit her, she has to make a hard read (arguably one of the hardest reads) and put herself at risk; she has to not only know that you’re going to hit a button, but also when and what type. If she wants to open you up through less risky and more traditional means (I.E. Naginata normals), she has to deal with armor just like everyone else.

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Aganos vs Hisako is one of the few matchups in the rock guy’s favor. If Hisako is trying to throw you, use his shadow pulverize as its throw invulnerable and has very good range. Above all, just be patient other than her counters and throws there is not much Hisako can do to Aganos when he has chunks.

As an Aganos main who has fought a lot of Hisako players, I’d have to say that it’s a pretty even matchup IMO. You’re right that the command throws and counter bypass his armor, but 1 command grab automatically ends the combo and the other can only continue the combo if you have enough wrath meter, which isn’t often, unless you’re fighting a very patient and methodical Hisako player.

More often than not though, I can beat her at range with my own throw, shoot chunks at her, catch her in the air with natural disaster or ruin into wall crash, keep her at a distance with peacekeeper throws, and perform a non-attacking jump to bait her counter for a full-on punish.

Actually Hisako has the best 75/25 in the game against Aganos. Use Lp.Air-Onryozan or light Possession, or Wrath-Cancel the grab instead. Her possession is Anti-Grab Invulnerable but it isn’t grab invulnerable itself, her other grab is grab invulnerable but S.Pulverize can counter it (even though you Wrath-Cancel it for a full counter) however it cannot counter her other grab as I said. You jump either one of her grabs but Lp.Onryo beats ALL of Aganos’s air-normals.

This requires full Wrath most of the time, but against Aganos a Hisako can easily maintain it since poking Aganos is unnecessary for victory. Even without full wrath that 75/25 moment is just reduced to a 50/50.

Also Aganos is hands down the easiest character to Counter in the Game with Hisako. Aganos normals are huge and very visible from mid to far range. Hisako’s only true weakness in this MU are cr.HK and rocks. As an Aganos player this is a game of chess against Hisako because if you are knocked down the chances of you guessing right on your wake up is about 25%.

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…but do a grounded On-Ryo-Zan when Aganos has chunks and you’re mincemeat.

Yea never do that lol

Hmm… That’s totally not the response I thought you’d give. As a matter of fact, here’s the response that I thought you’d give:

…but I digress. :slight_smile:

I would have said that, but Since I play Aganos and usually throw a rock or grab her out of a naked Onryozan I wouldn’t want that to happen to your Hisako =(

To this day I have never gotten opened by a grounded Onryozan while being Aganos with even 1 chunk let alone more.

Nowadays Hisakos are pretty rare, meaning a Hisako that knows the matchup well is even rarer. When I do have trouble with a Hisako, it feels more like I’m losing to the player rather than the character. To make it relatively short:

  • Yes, she can counter through armor… but that means you had to be pressing a button in the first place, which you shouldn’t be doing much of in this matchup, especially since Aganos’ normals are the slowest in the game. Your ground game should really only consist of Cr.HK since the 2nd hit is a projectile (not counterable!) and it has good pushback on it. This is bad for Hisako, since she needs to commit to forward dashing over a large space to get in.
  • If you can condition her to not dash, then she’ll try jumping in, and her jump is fairly easy to anti-air with Aganos. If she ever does a wall jump off of a Cyclopean wall, laugh - she might as well uppercut and Ruin herself through the wall.
  • She can teleport, but it’s not like a Fulgore teleport where you have 1.5 choices to make. You almost determine what she has to do when she gets up. You can jump over her and throw, throw immediately, jump away, or hit her with an LK tick throw.
  • If you can get a few throws and control space well in neutral, she’s probably the easiest character to knock through 2-3 walls.
  • Wakeup sucks against her. It sucks less with chunks. Don’t hit a meaty with Shadow Ruin. Don’t hit the command grab with Shadow Pulverize. Hit jump-ins with Shadow Natural Disaster, if you can get that god-awful random timing on the recapture. Know that more Hisakos do command grabs on knockdown as opposed to meaties (hold up). If you know your opponent knows that, then wake up jab or throw or tick throw (if you have armor). Hisako’s mixups are good, but when she’s wrong, it usually turns in your favor. This is opposed to other characters, which is “here’s a safe mixup, then a frame trap, then another safe mixup!”
  • Instinct always goes down like this: Throw a club to get her full screen > she teleports > you do an empty jump of some kind > you get a command grab to knock her through a wall you’ve probably set up.
  • On Ryo Zan in Japanese translates to “free grab for Aganos”.
  • If she’s not anti-airing, do empty jump-in > empty neutral jump > punish the counter that she’s definitely cancelled into by now. OR if you’ve done some conditioning with Cr. HK, then do a whiffed F+HK into grab. That works way more than I usually expect it to.
  • Hold up when you’re getting comboed… or don’t, I’m not a cop.

I remember the Aganos Sadira matchup when he was released and how horrendous it was but I am now starting to prefer Hisako against our friendly neighborhood golem. I do think she has an edge over him, her counter and influence being the staples of this advantage. I haven’t analyzed the matchup because I’ve mostly underestimated Aganos’ potential and mostly picked Sadira. Recent events have shown me how dangerous he can be against her and I am now pushed to use Hisako more often in this matchup.

Hilarious :joy:

Thanks Leo. Immensely helpful post.


Ok. @LeoFerreis, After reading:

It made me laugh so hard, I started choking on the water I happened to be drinking.

(Note to self: Stay away from water while reading the Forums)

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Pretty sure I’ve written posts on this no less than 4 times already. As I cannot find any example of such on these forums, however, I shall respond in an abbreviated manner.

The MU is solidly 5-5. Neither character deals particularly well with the other once they gain the momentum. Hisako has literally no capacity to strip chunks from Aganos, as his normals go as far as hers and nothing she has hits remotely fast enough to steal more than one at a time. Air-ORZ performed on a chunked Aganos will get you trip guard thrown as a hard punish. Once she strips chunks from him however, Aganos is more or less free to her wakeup pressure. The match tends to go lopsidedly in the direction of one character or the other, but that split is pretty even to get there.

Below are some nuggets of wisdom to go along with @LeoFerreis’ masterful list:

  • If you get countered as Aganos you had it coming - you should be throwing Hisako and using cr+HK.
  • You should not be getting caught by influence - if you are getting caught by influence it means Hisako was on top of you to begin with, which means you messed up somewhere
  • Punish everything with forward throw into chunk or wall
  • Chunks in this MU does not mean “power through anything this character can throw at me”
  • Waking up with either shadow ruin or pulverize is a bad idea. Unless she tried to influence you on wakeup (which is a terrible idea unless she’s conditioned the heck out of you), whatever she did is wrath-cancelable into counter

I am saddened to hear that there are apparently not very many Hisako’s out there… :pensive:

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I will say on paper, Hisako does pretty well against the big man. It’s important to establish yourself early in the match if playing a competent Hisako.

This goes in about every match, but baiting the parry is absolutely vital. Aganos players realize that jumping attacks are important to gain frame advantage, but against Hisako, you have to play mind games with her in order to bait out the mid-high parry (since we all know, there’s no reason for them to parry low).

This is where safe jumps and neutral jumps come in handy. Aganos’ speed - due to chunks - can be an assist in disguise. Because how many chunks dictate how fast he can go, especially in his regular attacks (i.e. jumping ones) can benefit him from have the attack (red) hitbox not coming how fast enough, baiting the parry and getting at the very least a throw out.

Also, always recognize that any shadow move, she is forced to commit and cannot parry to save herself, very important to know.

Her air Ryo-Zan is a pain, because how air mechanics work on the game, doing a back jab (i.e. anti air flick) to beat out the move will get stuffed because it’s technically at a lower priority. Remember that in the air, all attacks get a strength debuff. Meaning: Shadow moves = Specials, Specials = Fierce, Fierce = Medium, Medium = Light, Light = -1. So it makes sense for Hisako players to throw out specials because the best thing you can do is lose is throw out the flick, so you need to crouching fierce punch. This is why there’s a lot of start up on Hisako’s Ryo-Zan, for you to react.

Optimally, you should always Shadow Natural Disaster against her if she even thinks of jumping. You need these combos.

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It’s like my Hisako/Aganos match-up thread is unfolding in front of me before I created it. I love this. :heart_eyes:

Lots of stuff for me to lab up, thanks for the posts everyone.