3.8 Patch Notes


#143

@Paramisery The way I always built up meter wa smix ups physical attacks, blocked or hit still give you spin speed. Just gonna have to keep poking them until I open them up. So there is a reliable way to build meter.

But the more I consider it: Cinder, Riptor, Fulgore all have one thing in common for me: all have good offence but relatively crappy defence, cept Cinder’s anti-air is just a little bit more direct. Fulgore’s heavy DP and medium DP means Sadira can just keep hitting you with her daggers and ger away with it, and she cna laready do that with widoes drop to stuff your attempts at anti-air.

Until we have the confidense to do them I personally think that you’ll just have to block your opponents jump ins while you’re down from now on unless you’re confident you can reach with a light dp.

Seems like IG nerfs alot of Fulgore’s anti-air game.

However despite the face of adversity and every other player abandons the bot, I won’t. Fulgore is still going to be one of my mains nothing has changed for me. It just means I’ll be using cyber uppercut less on wake up especially if someone can just kick me in the shins if I tried anything.

However that’s just the feeling of dispair talking, I was unsure all the other times Fulgore got changed. When his H laser got nerfed and chosen by the people who never played Fulgore I was bummed but it didn’t stop me from mixing in a quick little Hlaser juggle for some fun combos and it was still effective against Glaciu’s icicle kicks.

New patch in season3 was unsure about it, but over time my anti-air was good now at keeping people from coming in on me (minus Sadira cause she always can stuff Fulgire’s anti-air anyway) So who knows maybe I can still knock ice-kick spamming glacius out of the air with my H cyber uppercut still who knows.

A bit of lab practice and I might get it. But aside from getting three hits out of H DP and 2 out of M DP, I don’t think there’s any point to using them anymore, at least not yet, not until we know how effective they are against opponents who are jumping at you from the air. I assume a quick dropping light kick (just a guess or prediction if you will) will stop you easy.

Whomever wanted this change either kept jumping recklessly or did something and fell for a wake up attack. Jago’s DP was good for punishing that, the same won’t be said for fulgore’s dp aside from a more risky-easy miss, go as far light dp.

So you’ll have to have more tight timing if you want to hit with a light DP without missing and…guess what, getting hit again.

So long story short you’ll have to get more physically aggressive.


#144

I still think he’s one of the best characters in the game, but that’s just my opinion. Seems interesting though. Gonna try and see how these changes feel Tuesday. :slight_smile:


#145

I don’t go by tiers or who’s best in the game. If anything It’s always the player’s fault that a character can’t win in anything. People don’t want to work at it, but I guess that’s just preference. If I love a character enough I’ll make it work for me. I did that with Fulgore in S1, I did it when he got nerfed mid season2, I did it beggining of season3, I’ll do it again here.

Will I admit some characters have advnatages over the others? yes but that’s just how it is. I’m not disparing because I feel Fulgore some how weaker in the eyes of some arbitrary list that tells me who to play. I’m bummed that it’s gonna be easier to keep me against the wall since there’s not much risk to jumping in the air at the full height of your jump while I’m on the ground to do a wake up. Makes it harder to punish dumb decisions really.


#146

Disagree.

Cinder has a an anti cross up reversal which can lead to combo, and even after this patch, he still has a meterless dp, good anti air dps, and both have great backdashes. [quote=“JEFFRON27, post:143, topic:21410”]
Seems like IG nerfs alot of Fulgore’s anti-air game
[/quote]

No, they nerfed his wake up game (although he still has a meterless dp) and his pressure, but his anti air remains mostly the same.


#147

No, they nerfed his wake up game (although he still has a meterless dp) and his pressure, but his anti air remains mostly the same.
[/quote]

That’s what I mean by more direct, if someone’s in the air and you use fire-flash you’re granteed a hit. Fulgore and Riptor not so much, but taking everything into account Cinder isn’t good being stuck on defense just as Riptor and Fulgore are not and I’m not just talking about jump in attacks.

wake up-game anti-air game, I usually do it the same way. If someone’s at the height of their jump I’m on the ground go for a light DP, good chance I’m going to miss. wehter I’m on knocked down or not. It still applies for the most part. at least form my expeirence. For some reason people have an issue with getting anti-aired by Fulgore. They probably should of stopped jumping while he’s on the ground or trying for anything except a cross up.

I don’t do anything like that while my opponent is down for those exact reasons, if they go for a wake up or a dp I can punish. It looks like now they have a better chance to just be a bit wreckless and get away with it. At least, that’s what I’m seeing. I’m unsure, unless someone can give more insight on that.

You say “meterless” DP like as if it’s relevant, any character that can do an uppercut into the air without using shadow meter is some how special, the issue is, any that don’t miss jump ins that don’t go into cross ups Fulgore’s stronger versions could get stuff by assuming this vulenrability doesn’t go well.

Now I am already fully awayre of the pressure and stuff, that’s something I already got and I’m not worried about that. It’s the scenario of being put on the ground and unable to do anything with a reliable DP that bugs me, especially when the person who jumped into the air to hit me. Cross ups aren’t an issue considering Fulgore’s DP will miss them anyway but I’m just talking about the people who don’t block and when they should be expecting a wake up.

I seem to be drifting between depression and full on bravado.


#148

27 years of data across different games directly contradicts your sentiment. :slight_smile:


#149

I got to the part of Infil’s stream where he talked about S1 and I feel I had to say this: I agreed.
The game was played in different way and also I saw how players evolved (talking about the competitive scene just to point it out) and grew up with the game.

As far as I’m concerned, and either I like it or not, people can play the game the way they want as long as the game allows it. If the “don’t like it” feeling weights more in the balance I will just stop playing or might consider play with the players I have fun with.
But changes/fixes that stop/correct the nutyness of some characters (eg Thunder) or adjustments to degenerate stuffs (as a huge example: Eyedol’s j.HP) are very welcome and tbh feel they help the game.

This doens’t mean I will stop complaining about Hisako because…I don’t want to start =)


#150

No not necessarily some people have done well with low tiers. Player skill still an important factor. I just can’t pick a top tier and expect to beat people like daigo, Sonicfox, Saint,and others even if their playing the worst in the game. But tiers do play a apart but tiers still come down to perception and opinions.


#151

I’m not going to argue with you, but I just want you to know Circa Nicky, a player who DEPENDS on Fulgore (and Mira too) in order to run his career, is completely happy with the changes to his character.

Don’t you think you should maybe take a step back and think about why people think he’s good, and how you could optimize that?


#152

Maybe because he still has more and better tools than half the cast? You’re complaining because he’s no longer one of the two characters that can just say “■■■■ you” on reaction to a shadow counter. Boo hoo. He’s a dead character? ROFL

Except not. First, there’s not 27 years worth of data in KI. Second, tier lists don’t win any games at all. 99% of people complaining about changes to their character would be much better off spending their time getting better st the game rather than complaining about patch changes.


#153

Tiers aren’t based upon opinions. People CAN have opinions, as I could say Sadira is an S Tier character and I do win most of my fights using her, but IS she really S Tier? Of course she’s not.

Tiers are based upon facts. If a character has enough tools to allow them to have more winning matches than not, they are considered Top tier.


#154

i ment a opinions as they all start as opinions like yeah when the meta is completely refined a tier list is almost borederline facts but i ment more in a not a completely developed meta. ex. Melee, UMVC, Sf3, SF2, MVC2, all have defined metas but games like Mkx, SF5, KI, Injustice 2, we have an idea what is good but nothing is optimized enough to be set where everything is set in stone. Somethings are still underdeveloped and not optimized to almost perfection. Thats what i ment.


#155

Not really…

There are clearly defined reasons why Jago, Fulgore, Aria, Myra, and Omen have remained on the top 5 Tier List. This wasn’t established by opinions, but because of the nature of these character’s tool sets, and how these tool sets work within the meta of this game.

Sadira, for example, is considered low tier, because even though she has great tools, more than half of the cast has tools that are good at shutting her down.

These aren’t opinions, but facts. Tier Lists, at least real ones, are always based upon facts.

I win most of my fights with Sadira, and I can do some amazing things with her, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t low tier.


#156

Er, meterless DP are extremely relevant. They are a key tool for the characters that possess them, since they can escape more easily from pressure than characters without them.

To put an example:

Fulgore has a meterless dp. If I’m Fulgore and you knock me down and proceed to meaty me, if I get the read, I could use my dp and hit you, ending your turn and giving me advantage

TJ has a metered DP: shadow vortex. If TJ has no meter and gets knocked down, he has to respect meaty attacks. If his opponent knows it, he will be abused this way until he has meter.

Raam doesn’t have a Dp, metered or not. His wake up options either are vulnerable to hits, or vulnerable to throws, but has no option which wins both. He will have a harder time than chars with DPs to deal with pressure


#157

I thought Storm already did this, or are you referring to playing Fulgore post 3.8?

And quite frankly, as he sits right now, normal meter gain is not possible. His entire framework is built around that meter style. If you plug a normal meter on him (and by extension allow him to ‘pip cancel’ for 25% of a bar) and give him some meter on block normals, there are game altering consequences.

I also disagree with the thought of him being a dead character. Weaker doesn’t mean dead and nerfed doesn’t mean unviable. I get the why and the feeling behind it, but i just don’t agree. Time will certainly tell, but i don’t think he’s close to a ‘bad’ character.


#158

In case people aren’t too interested in listening to a nerd ramble for 2+ hours on stream, I will highlight my thoughts on the patch here:

There are a few things I wouldn’t personally have done, the main ones being remove frame advantage on Jago/Fulgore lows (low forward in particular, low short I don’t really care about), Gargos minion chip damage.

There are a few things I would have been okay with doing, but with slight adjustments: Gargos reckoning damage normalized but make it slightly higher than the current baseline, Fulgore DP nerf is fine but buff light DP damage from 30 to 36 so it hits like the old heavy (if the problem is the 3-hit-ness of the move, then keep his reversal damage the same), and maybe slightly adjust laser frame data (medium laser worse than 0 is fine, but -3 maybe 1 frame too far).

There are a few things I would have done that they didn’t do (and may need to do in the future), but this is likely because the devs had to submit the balance changes before this stuff was thought about too much, like Shinsako runaway. We have to keep in mind we are seeing a version of the game the devs thought about many months ago, due to the length of patch cycles. It’s not necessarily their current vision of the game informed by Combo Breaker and CEO.

But most of it is fine and the game is still in a great position.

In particular, Thunder I think is basically no worse at all and still a huge top 5 threat. He now has to reversal with shadow DP and use regular backdash (or a hard read with command grab) to escape throws, but that was stuff he was doing already anyway. And his other nerfs just slightly contain his “I’m doing this without a thought, good luck” nuttiness without really limiting his awesome options at the mid-screen range. And he still has some pretty good nuttiness in there. You’re still going to get crossed up by skyfall, you’re still going to get command grabbed, you’re still going to get rushed down by his instinct (which is unchanged), he still has fantastic normals. So I don’t really think you can put Thunder in the “no longer the character he once was” category, I don’t see how his gameplan has changed much at all.


#159

Hmm…recall there being a good number of people, myself included, that noted your observations in their own analysis on this thread.

:slight_smile:


#160

He did, but his play style primarily functioned around using cr mk, which is now -2. Granted, -2 isn’t horrible, but for a character that CANNOT increase his spin speed without making physical contact with his opponent, this is yet another much larger nerf that I think most of the people on here see it to be. I pretty much expect Fulgore to be at minimal reactor speed at almost all times now. Also, where did Nicky say he liked these changes? I spoke with him at CEO and he struck me as being very done with the character. Perhaps he liked the changes because Mira didn’t get touched.

BigBadAndy, don’t be a ■■■■, I’ve never once advocated for nerfing anyone’s character. I’d genuinely like you to explain to me what all these great tools are though. Everything good he has requires meter, which you have no consistent way of getting, and none of them do damage anymore because they were previously balanced around when Fulgore got a lot of meter.

Maybe I’m going about this all wrong, rather than try to get my character buffed, it seems like the new way to play the game is to just cry my eyes out over all the other characters and see if I can get any of them to be killed off in 3.9.


#161

Also, you have the ability to confirm into blade dash off normal, which acts as a frame trap, only needs a short charge time before it is plus, and it builds reactor speed. Stop acting like normals were what Fulgore depended on in his pressure, cause they are not as prominent as you say.

And yes, I’ve played Fulgore before. I suck with him because I suck at dp’ing and knowing when to pip cancel. Not because he’s bad.


#162

Let me say this then.

I’ve not touched Fulgore aside from taking him to training mode to learn strings that were annoying me or lab xyz. And i know that for some, that automatically disqualifies everything that’s about to follow. Oh well.

I have the opinion that Fulgore is a walking toolbox, limited by a player’s imagination. If the player feels limited, Fulgore is going to play limited. Ie, if the player feels fireball + teleport is his only good way in, they’ll feel the bot is weak if it gets shut down, just as an example. There are few things the bot cannot do in this current patch. His weakness, which every character has, is his unconventional meter system. You hate it, @Paramisery, right? Fair enough and noted. Moving on.

I don’t believe you’re correct to assume that people do not see a nerf the way you do. There have been multiple people that have said this round of changes to Fulgore seem like too much. Of course, there have been others that praise them too. Just how it is. I also think you place too much value on meter. Playing Fulgore with good fundamentals in mind (checking jump in’s with AA’s, capitalizing on lockouts, whiff punishing/frame trapping, etc) can win a lot of battles all on their own. In no way, shape or form am i claiming that the long term strategy is to beat your opponent disregarding gaining spin speed. I’m saying that his tool set allow a player more than ample options to gain an advantageous position over their opponent. Fulgore, and not one person can dispute this, is not fun to play against when they’re in any kind of lead.

Here’s the thing though. I’ve read enough to feel that not one person on these forums or even any significant player of note is going to change your opinion, which seems locked in stone. I truly wish you the best in playing KI.