PaulB Talks: Season 3

Still watching the video, but there’s something I have to address here in these comments.

I’m actually really getting tired of people saying there is no penalty for lockouts :unamused: Unless it’s done very late in combo, there is a massive penalty for being wrong on a break attempt. It is on you as a player if you are so eager to get out of a potential breaker that even after they lock out you wind up ending your combo because you’ve burned it into your soul that anything breakable=bad and want to get your oki setup, or because you think manuals=good all the time and don’t maximize your lockout damage. That is on you as a player. The game punishes lockouts for 50+% damage if you are patient enough to wait to see what happens before you end your combo. It used to be amusing, now I find this complaint incredibly annoying. There is a huge risk to combo breaking if you don’t go about it intelligently - it is your fault as a player if you’re not capitalizing when they get it wrong.

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I agree, STORM,

I don’t get where the mentality that there is no penalty from failed combo breakers came from.

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I agree. with you on this one. Plus: I don’t think people tend to mix things up a bit when they play the game. I think people forget that they always have more control than they think.

In my opinion I beleive that while season2 characters my seem gimmicky at least they don’t all play the same. Could their be some refining? maybe, but the style and diversity means there’s a play style for everyone.

On another note: about easy to break characters:
Riptor and Jago may be easy to break for a numbe rof reasons, but that just means the player HAS to mix things up. To be allowed any advantage because the player tends to spam the same autos over and over or manuals, or doesn’t through a new thing in sounds silly to me.

anyone technically can be easier to break if you study their moves enough.

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if there is one thing that needs to go is the recapturing. that is LAME.

edit: especially a recapture after a combo breaker or a combo breaker > instinct cancel. ive done it myself and i feel dirty for it

STORM the problem is people are generally keeping combos very short or hard to break these days, which means you don’t get a lot of potential damage built up and the KV meter fills quickly. People generally break towards the END of combos which means even if they get locked out the KV is already mostly full. And also, you’re only getting 50%+ IF you get an early lockout AND you have meter to burn for Level+ ender.

Personally, locking out is frightening, especially against opponents that take their time and don’t buffer their attacks. Like STORM said, players just need to do a better job at punishing failed combo breakers and stop being scared of dishing out long combos.

I actually agree @UAPaulB - the style in which the player plays determines his options once the lockout happens. The Orchid low short->low short->insert combo is never going to do significant damage, but it is going to get you the next setup, and maybe that’s the thing that really matters. The flipside is that I already know that you’re afraid of a long combo, so what possible reason do I have not to guess break once you touch me? If you’re afraid to do a combo of more than 6 hits, the first 5 of which are unbreakable, then I already know that you’re sure as hell not going to chance me on a counter breaker, and I can safely eff up this break attempt however many times it takes low short->low short->manual->ender to kill me. There is no risk to me breaking because my opponent is risk-averse, and I know he’s not going to call me on it.

The breaks come towards the end because the combo hit 83 KV before I could even break, because you (generic you, btw) hit-confirmed off low short or cr+lp, and then did nothing but medium linkers (if you were feeling ambitious) and manuals. There’s no opportunity to truly punish a bad guess because the style you’ve chosen is low damage by nature. You start a combo with mp->opener->heavy linker and all of a sudden it starts to matter a heck of a lot more whether or not I guess incorrectly. Is that very breakable? Absolutely. But it also starts to force the other guy to actually think about whether or not he can get away with testing you. That style is risky, yes, but it also actually makes the other guy have to respect that you’re ok with taking a risk every now and then. That one-chance break stuff that’s all the rage now gives away the game that you’re not by its very nature. I really do believe it’s one of the reasons (along with poor use of meter) that we don’t see Jago do better in tournament a lot of the time. People are so afraid of taking any risk within combo that their style encourages their opponents to do more of it, because they know you’re never going to really punish them for it, because you can’t. Rebelo gets away with so much ■■■■ because no one just throws heavy AD’s at him the instant they touch him. Yeah, heavies are bait. At high level so are mediums. Toss one or two at them anyway and see how they respond once there’s actually a consequence to being wrong.

I get that being broken sucks. I get that being broken by a guess break sucks harder (and even moreso against someone like Kan-Ra). And I actually firmly believe that the better you get the less you rely on things like counterbreakers to get around it, because as you get better you realize how much solid damage you can get without taking unnecessary risks. But I also think that KI as a game actively discourages a risk-free style, and I think many top level players willfully ignore that aspect of the game because they’re afraid of risk. It’s why they’re good to a large extent, but it’s also why this complaint keeps coming up even though the game has so many ways to punish randomness. And the thing is, you lose options by playing too safely - if all you ever do is manuals, then I get 50% guesses on your manuals unless you managed to sneak a heavy linker by me, or an 100% “guess” if you’re so wedded to manuals that you want to manual even after light linkers. Trying to completely avoid the combo breaker game is limiting, and so many higher level players are ok with these limitations just to get that extra margin of safety within combo, and then will turn around and complain that their opponent kept guessing and the game doesn’t punish it hard enough.

I’m a Hisako secondary, and one of the things I know is that as I’ve gotten better with her, the less I use her counters. The less I have to. The bloody things are insanely punishable if you whiff, and a lot of times she has better ways to respond to things. But even as I use them less and less consistently, there still has to be a credible threat of counter for me to play that character to her max potential. If you know that I don’t like to counter and don’t throw them out, then what possible reason do you have to not just go completely nuts on me? I think the high-level beef with KI (such as it is) is basically Hisako writ large - the existence of tools that people simply don’t want to use, because they’re dangerous if you get it wrong.

Towards the end of your video you talked about them (the devs) trying to make “us” play the game in a way “we” don’t want to. You said it yourself within your video multiple times, but there’s a huge chunk of the game population that emphatically isn’t in that “we”. You don’t want to play the risky combo game, and maybe TexAce or Nino or Grief or whoever doesn’t, but for a lot of the people who play this game that interaction is what’s exciting and what keeps them coming back. For myself, one of the things I really love about KI is that the game to a certain extent punishes you for being too afraid of risk. You can have your safe, nigh-unbreakable 20% one-chance into setup, but that necessitates you being able to open me up 5 times to the 2 or 3 times I need to open you up to take your bar. My style (mix of manuals and AD’s, not talking about counterbreakers) is a lot riskier than yours in terms of being broken though, so it really does come down to whether or not I understand who I’m playing against and what their tendencies are. That’s the game I want to play - one where there really isn’t an “optimum” playstyle, and where you have multiple viable options to close out the fight in terms of attaining damage. I love that there’s always something you can do in that last moment - that’s what makes KI an awesome game to me.

This post is already far too long, but that’s part of my take on it. I agreed with a lot of what you said in your video: Kan-Ra=/=fun or fair, and some things probably are a bit too shenanigansy. But on the breaker mechanic I think, and have always thought, that too many high level players simply ignore many of the options the game gives to avoid the guessing everyone claims to hate. And I’m not even talking about counterbreakers, which I’d agree are too hard of a read for consistent use at high level.

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I don’t care what happens in Season3 as long as Orchid gets buffs.

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For the love of god someone agrees with me on this. If not damage, frame advantage somewhere… I still think her overhead is good but could be much better.

@STORM179

Read your whole post - bravo! :clap: I think you nailed a bullseye :dart: with that post and heartily :heart: agree. It was something I actually already said :lips:, but you did it so much better. :bow:

Nice. Good Stuff. Still Need that Jago Air Dash Buff and DP’s being 0 Frames on Wakeup. XD

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This video is really informative and well thought out, I really hope that Iron Galaxy listens to top players who are wanting the game to change for he better. This game is great but the stuff that discourages intelligent play and overall balance has got to go. I honestly think IG should hire some top players with good intentions in mind to help on the games design, I think it could go a long way in helping the game be better.

I will say though that Storm up above makes a great point for keeping the combo breaker system as is and what many players may have a problem with.

The combo breaker is one of the, if not the main point of the game mechanics, why would it need changed. I get that some top players don’t like certain things but what about the masses that actually like the way the game plays? Most of us won’t get to pro status. We love the game for what it is. Sure some things and characters could be modified let’s not forget what made it great in the 1st place.

There are players that believe in finding the “right and only way” to play characters. It is their right to attempt to win that way.

I enjoy playing and watching the mind game interaction of KI’s system. I like knowing that some players will concentrate on learning just a few tech moves while others completely freestyle it, and both have equal opportunity to win because of the Counter-Combo Breaker system (and online updates to iron out the bugs that used to create god and S-tiers in the old arcade days).

I feel many changes used to remove the neutrality of the breaker attempts will only serve to create more matchup problems, not remove them.
It should be known for over 15 years now, you can’t create absolute balance, you can only create equal oppourtunity. The more characters you add, the less balance you have but the more equal viable options/oppourtunity you strive to create.

Combo Breakers reset both players, Counter Breakers reward good reads/baits and Lockouts punish the way a fighting game should, by allowing the LIFE BAR to be exposed to “free” damage. (punish and reward are same coin, yes, but it’s cynical to state all coins have a heads & tail :wink: )

If a player uses only 1-chance breaks, they either spam that tech knowing the opponent can’t break the timing OR they Counter Break knowing their opponent can… And if they have Shadow Meter, quite possibly Shadow Counter.
There is nothing more elegant to a genre of game where the history of it is based on finding glitches+tech to create impenetrable ways of “playing” to begin with.

If tweaks are to be made, it’s balancing out Openers and ensuring there aren’t specific Option Selects to prevent a character from absolutely locking out the other from entering combo similar to how S1 Sadira could be used on everyone.

Keits has mentioned that not all the tech is known. It may be that many current mismatches are due to not discovering the equal Opener oppourtunities.

I don’t envy the position the Devs are in. As has been said with perfect balance you have a very generic fighter that doesn’t have a lot of character personality. So some of the shinanigans that KI characters have is important to keep. At the same time in KI’s current iteration the game can be very one dimensional with certain characters.

Orchid for example she gets in, and then it’s vortex period. This stays the same for every matchup. Spinal gets skulls, mixup city, drain resources.

At the end of the day KI is a medium of entertainment, you’re supposed to have fun with it. Paul made some very good points on what’s not fun and I agree with most of them.

-Kan-Ra is not fun to play against. Is he OP, unbeatable, broken? No, but he’s still really boring to play against.
-Making unsafe moves safe
-Unbreakable Combos
-One dimensional characters (Orchid vortex)
-Wulf Feral Cancel shinanigans
-Combo Breaker instinct cancels
-Ranked, Skill based matchmaking is severely lacking causing great players like PaulB and Grimmz to get bored of the game and unskilled players to quit out of frustration of getting stomped often.

There are some solid points that could help IG moving forward. Why not make projectiles breakable? Can character buffs be more matchup specific? Did prior buffs have the intended effects or should they be tweaked?

One thing I’m sure of is that none of these opinions are new to IG and they have their finger on the pulse of the community and the game. Something that really can’t be said about most developers. One thing Paul alluded to however is taking criticism personally and letting ego get in the way, I think with the amount of love and passion they have put into the game it can be difficult to separate feelings and logic. I’m not saying this is or has been the case but if I were in their position I know it would be difficult.

I think your assessment is a little off. If failed CB attempts cost potential damage, that isn’t a double negative, it is just another negative.

As of today, in this scenario you’ve already lost the neutral “game”, in that your opponent has already won the ability to start a combo, AND you’ve lost a little life (double positive?), but after that initial interaction, therein begins the 2nd “game,” the combo game.

In the combo game, the defender has the opportunity to stop the loss of life AND reset back to the neutral game, which rectifies their mistake in the neutral game (or in some cases, with instinct, gain advantage and/or damage…but that might go away. We don’t know.). If you fail to CB though, you CONTINUE to loose life (a consequence you already have gained since you lost the neutral), but no added consequence for loosing the ‘combo game.’ You might want to say that being locked out is consequence enough, but not really since if you had never tried to CB, you would have eaten the same amount of damage anyway. There was no real consequence at all for loosing the combo game.

If CB cost potential damage though, the end result is you lost the neutral, AND you lost the combo game, thus you are left dealing with the consequences of both your failures. That isn’t a double negative, those are 2 singular negatives, direct results of your loss in 2 individual “games.”

There should be a consequence for EACH of your failures.

I think failed CBs costing potential damage might be the best solution I’ve heard. If you don’t want to eat a ■■■■ ton of damage, don’t break…unless you have a good read. Then again there will always be those people who don’t care, and will roll the dice regardless. In KI there will always be guess breakers, and I really don’t think you can, or even should, take that away. Just make the scenario cost something, and I think many people will be happy with that solution.

another thing about this scenario though, is that I’m not sure how I feel about “loosing” the ability to combo off a CB, if CBs cost potential damage. @UAPaulB makes a good argument as to why Instinct canceling CBs is a bad idea, but if CBs cost potential damage, then shouldn’t a successful CB gain you something too? (Even if it is just a situational advantage at certain times.)

IDK. A CB being used as a tool to rectify a mistake in the neutral may be the best reward overall. That would keep the emphasis on the neutral, and make it the most important part. If you put to much reward in the ‘combo game,’ for the defender at least, that might take too much away from the importance of the neutral.

Thoughts?

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Being locked out really isn’t a consequence, it’s just peace of mind for the aggressor. If the defender gets locked out, sure that is on them, but at the same time if they hadn’t locked out and had just eaten the damage, they still would have been combo-ed for the same amount.

I already commented about failed CBs costing potential damage, but another idea is what if failed CBs cost KV? What if a lockout meant that the KV meter reset by 50 if something? (I’m just throwing out a number)

If that were the case, a failed early breaker attempts would still cost valuable time and potential damage in the combo via the lock-out, but failed late breakers would potentially cost massive damage with an even longer combo. I think I like the idea of failed CB costing PD better, but them costing KV is still a viable option.

Edit:

I just read your long post, and you have some great points! I actually think the ‘failed CBs costing KV’ idea I discussed above, as oppose to the ‘failed CBs costing PD’ idea, would fit rather nicely into your (the) philosophical take on FGs that KI has. Short one-chance break combos for 20%, could be turned into longer 25-35% combos off lockouts, but only if the aggressor is willing to commit and take that “risk.”

Overall though, you hit the nail on the head about most players not wanting to take risk. It is a the basis of just about every other fighting game, and is why people like to harp on things like footsies. Players want to be safe, or rather be as riskless as they can, but also be able to capitalize on the risky play of their opponent. KI’s combo system plays counter to this idea as it allows for risky play for both players in the neutral, but it both incentivizes and discourages risky play in the combo game.

  1. Successful CBs make up for “bad/risky play” in the neutral, and
    allows for “bad neutral” to fly unfettered as CBs are sort of like get
    out of jail free cards.

  2. In combo, in order to gain any significant damage you have to play
    risky…which essentially opens you up to broken…which essentially
    erases any “win” you earn in the neutral.

Honestly, I rather enjoy the mind game, but then again I don’t play competitively. I see both sides through, which is why I advocate for CB’s costing something.

I agree on the inconsistent balance philosophy. I also agree on nerfing the gimmicky 50/50 BS and focusing more on footsies. But I don’t see it happening.

I personally think the combo breaker system is fine the way it is. People go for one chance break combos because it helps them start their momentum with less risk, but that gives them less damage and less opportunities. Longer combos make smart (emphasis on smart) opponents anxious because any moment you could pull a counter breaker on them, and lock outs are punishing as well because the opponent can go nuts on you with whatever KV they have left.

Guess breaking is often a 1/3 chance of actually working, which is odds in the offensive player’s favor. I accept S2 manual limitations because manuals are not breakable on reaction unless you predict the correct strength BEFORE the hit comes out, which I think makes it fair.

All of us get guess broken on occasion and it makes us roll our eyes. But what we have to realize is A) The guess was likely a 33% chance, B) We were in charge of how the combo is structured, and C) It gives us insight to the opponent’s breaking patterns to make future counter breakers more successful.

Combo breakers benefitting some characters more than others is stupid, I agree. But that is a problem linked to the character design more than it is to the combo breaking mechanic.

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That is completely untrue.

The combo options available before a lockout and after are VERY different. You can use high hitting but low damaging light and medium transitions but you need to toss in those heavies to rack up the damage.
On top of that, there’s also character specifics;
If you’re Wulf’, you’re not tossing down rabid heavies until a lockout.
If you’re Maya, you’re certainly not executing many combos until you’ve locked the opponent out or gained full pips.
Letting Fulgore go to town at will let’s him keep his Reactor spinning on full rather using energy draining mixups to keep his opponent guessing.
Spinal is collecting 1 or 2 “free” skulls with ghostly manuals and extending his juggling-curse FB string to end said lockout.
Jago… My gods, Jago. I was at a friend’s house hanging out, and he challenged my shadow while we chatted Shago. To end one of the matches, my Jago executed an 11-hit (I think it was 9 hits TBH) 51% damage combo on an early lockout. Can only do that with easily broken heavies and Shadows which you only chain knowing you’re baiting for a Counter Breaker or have already lockout the opponent out… And you’re telling me you’d let me execute one of those 15-hit, single Shadow resource using, 65% combos on you because “meh, either-or.”?

Heavies are GREAT Counter Breakers. Landing a Counter Breaker allows the aggressor to push damage beyond apparent expectations and is the counter to those attempting to counter!!!

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