If I were to throw out a Shadow Endokuken point blank, you could hit me out of it, if you were quick enough. I have many fought skilled players that do this all the time. Even if I was to say, DP cancel into Shadow Endokuken, it’s still unsafe in a way. Plus, if I use it, I’m wasting a bar of meter either way. So I’d have to go through that whole process of getting shadow meter with either Blocked Endokukens, or a Battery ender, which most people either jump or avoid the endokukens, and Combo break my attempt for a Battery Ender. Jago actually uses the meter gain to his advantage, in order to get in. Like a Glacius vs Jago battle for instance. Glacius has tons of setups and tools that can keep a Jago at bay, where Jago without the meter gain he has, would have a harder time trying to stay alive.
And you are not, just voicing your opinion.
This is only if he has meter though. You can see a Full Screen Windkick for miles. Plus, If you block it, Jago gets punished severely for it. Recovery frames are bad too.
Hail is amazing, but usually whenever I play Glaciuses (Glacii? Glacies?), They always stop me from doing anything, even with two full stocks of meter in my possession with hail and other tools. So it can’t be that bad right?
PS: On a totally Different topic, Your Shadow Bodies me all the time, (I play Shadow Ladder and you are always in the higher tier) using Spacing and Hail, even with my meter.
In this situation, to be quite honest, NEITHER of you is making a good decision and recognising the frame data at play here.
Shadow wind kick is +2 on block, which means that Jago has the advantage if you block it (a lot of shadow moves are plus on block, many aren’t but Jago is not alone in having plus on block shadows). This means that if you try and jab him out afterwards and he does the same (or some mediums due to his fast normals and the plus frames) then he will hit you first, and he will stuff your throw attempts as well.
However, as he has the advantage there is no point in him doing a DP. Since Jago has a 3 frame DP (like most other s1 DPs) the invulnerability on it will run out before the opponent’s DP if that’s what they choose to do, so he will get hit. Since all other options are better covered by normal attacks and DP doesn’t actually beat anything else, he shouldn’t be doing this at all.
I might have to test this, because Shadow Windkick is safe, but you can catch a Jago after. And If it’s a Jago that knows you are going to push a button, yes, he can DP you out of it.
I agree with this. There usually isn’t a reason to do it, with Jago’s normals, but who knows?
That’s just a frame trap, either keep blocking or backdash, most Jagos have DP after blocked Wind Kick engraved into their brains so you can get a lot of easy wins off the ones that can’t break the habit in one match.
I basically used Shadow wind kick as an example but mainly it is also when the crouching light kick , into light wind kick…I block it, try to throw off the block and they Dp out of it and beat me. I cant stand that. Doe she have advantage there too? Obviously he does?
So what should I do in that situation exactly? I battle my friend a lot , mainly in shadows…but he is always jago and knows all the traps… this is one of the Strings he likes to get me on.
Now I am using Omen… so I dont have a DP, ect…
He doesn’t do this every time… but its always the moment when i need to get that punish off his blocked wiff…and BAM DP!
Its like…How in the helll did that DP reach me? Hit me? Beat me to the punch?..you know what Im saying? Those moments when your like…“BULL SHITT!” LOL “How is that possible?? Argghhhh!”
Jago is always at negative frames after a blocked wind kick (exactly how much depends on what version he uses, but I think he is at best -2). That means if you press your fastest button and he presses his fastest button, you will always win. Jago either has to block here, or use invincibility (for example, a DP) to go through your button.
If you know your opponent likes to DP here, I recommend just blocking and then punishing the DP. It’s not a winning strategy long term to take this bet as Jago, since he gets 12-15% on hit but will probably lose 30%+ on average if the DP is blocked. Sometimes Jago has to do it to keep you honest/nervous, but if he’s doing it a large percentage of the time, you should come out on top.
In general though, Jago has to take a risk if he wants to continue his offense while at negative frames, either by using an unsafe invincible move or trying to challenge your frame advantage with more buttons.
That makes sense! Thank you! I will start blocking them and punish. I have a feeling though…knowing the CPU (While fighting shadows) if I attack on the whiff, the CPU will DP, if I do nothing and block, he will grab me. Its like the CPU reacts when you push a button, and if I do nothing. I swear it reads your button presses LOL
Yeah that’s how AI in fighting games work. They read your inputs and sometimes do the counter to your action the very next frame. It’s really frustrating!
I imagine shadow AI probably works a little better for this, in that it will sometimes DP even if you don’t press a button (based on how the player trained it), but traditional fighting game AI Is terrible.
I’ve been in the same boat as @FallofSeraphs76 and was frustrated by this “instant DP” that Jago players often got after my block in the EXACT combos that he described in his post above, especially since I felt like I should be able to punish them after said successful block. Good to know how to counter it now - thanks!
Only heavy wind kick is truly punishable on block at -7. I think light is -2 and medium is -3 (someone correct me if I’m wrong). If you block a heavy wind kick, pick your best 7 frame or lower punish, otherwise you can’t strictly punish and you just have to try to use your frame advantage to make Jago lose the mixup more often than he wins it. This is typically a mix of challenging him with buttons and blocking/avoiding his desperation DPs (avoidance via backdash is better, if he has meter and is trying to cancel into shadow fireball), and it’s up to you as a player to make correct reads on those situations.
So how in the helll do you learn and remember all of these frame numbers and situations for each character? Id love to learn these numbers but it just seems like a lot to figure out…each move, its frame rate, and then what move can counter that frame advantage. Even for just one character opponent, much less the entire cast.
Any tips on where to start and how to make it all “click”?
I would be maining Omen and most of my opponents are Jago, Spinal, Wulf and Thunder.
and set it to “On”. Now whenever you hit your opponent with an attack, you will receive a readout in the text box in the top right of the screen, under which you can see
Attack Speed: startup / active / recovery
Advantage: on hit / on block
Attack data is not opponent-specific. A given move will always have the same properties on hit and block, no matter who you are using it on. You may find the effective ranges vary slightly, though, notably against Wulf or Riptor whose heads protrude forward. (Try switching hitboxes on in the pause menu to see for yourself!)
You don’t need to memorize all of a character’s frame data. For starters, active and recovery frames are irrelevant in the vast majority of situations.
You also probably won’t tend to care about advantage on hit very often in KI, and you only care about advantage on block if the move is unsafe (usually -5 – since almost no moves are fast enough to punish a -4 move on block – and sometimes even -5 and -6 are okay because of pushback), or if you actually get frame advantage on block (+1 or higher) since then you can keep attacking after it if your follow-up fast enough startup that your opponent can’t squeeze a fast button in to interrupt your next attack (and if you’re willing to chance your opponent using an invincible reversal such as a DP). (This latter concept is known as a frame trap.)
Well, I don’t think you need to digest everything at once, either. Just figure out the bits you need to know to answer the questions you’re asking.
For example, to determine whether wind kick is safe on block, look at wind kick’s advantage on block (-3 for medium, -7 for heavy) and compare that to the tools that your main character has that start up fast enough to punish those.
In the case of medium wind kick, if we were talking Jago/Orchid/Fulgore vs Jago, then those characters could punish medium wind kick with a DP…but in my experience that’s kinda hard and inconsistent. Try recording Jago medium wind kicking and then block and DP punish it in the lab yourself!
In the case of heavy wind kick, you’ll notice that, hey, all of your light buttons have 4 frames of startup, which means they’re active on frame 5, which is plenty of time! …but when you try it in the lab, you’ll find that there’s a bit too much pushback on heavy wind kick for you to connect with a typical light button. Well, what about medium buttons? I think you’ll find that all (or at least most) characters have a medium button that has 5 frames of startup (i.e. is active on frame 6), which’ll reach far enough to do the job.
EDIT: oops, far mediums with 5 frames of startup are a bit of a luxury – I think Riptor has one? You can probably expect to have a medium with 6 frames of startup (active frame 7) with enough reach, though, which’ll do the job of punishing a heavy wind kick on block.
Also, most people really only know the frame data for “the important moves”. Usually these moves are very often used moves that the opponent must block repeatedly throughout a fight. So, Jago wind kick applies here, which is why a lot of us know the frame data for that move.
I couldn’t tell you the exact frame data for most moves, though. Often all you need to know is “can I punish it or not?” So for example, I don’t know how plus on block Jago is after I block one of his, say… crouching jabs. I just know I’m not able to punish him; it’s probably in the +1 to +2 range or something like that? The exact number isn’t important here, just the notion of “has he given up his pressure or not?” and for crouching jab, Jago has not.
Usually the most important moves to know the exact frame data on are the fast horizontal traveling moves. So, TJ’s HP powerline is -3 on block. Orchid’s heavy slide is -10 on block (but with pretty good pushback). Aria’s heavy shotgun knee is, I believe, -8 on block. Stuff like this are the first moves I tend to look up when I’m studying a game’s frame data because the exact number tends to be pretty helpful, and you see these moves a lot.
