How would you rebalance S1 & S2 characters before season 3?

General Discussion
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IG’s idea of tweaking Season 1 characters was to compensate for some of the abilities incoming with Season 2 characters. Depending on what kind of shenanigans Season 3 characters bring to the table will depend on who/what they tweak from Seasons 1 and 2. Personally I think Season 3 should conform to what we already have and not add anything that drastically changes the game. But some may disagree. That will probably be the toughest part of making Season 3.

I am certain IG has been paying close attention to the way Season 2 is settling in. I find KI to be a pretty darn balanced game with a few bad matchups but nobody being utter trash. Glacius would probably get the most attention from Season 1 (IMO).

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Sadira: Would like to see the KV meter extended a bit and have more options for areal attacks, such as air autos. A few frame tweaks would be nice as well.

Sabrewulf: Change the inputs for Eclipse from “D/U” to a fireball motion. While the Down/Up inputs are certainly easy, I find that it sometimes comes out during combos when I wasn’t going for it. I think the standard fireball motion for this move, would make its execution less accidental and more purposeful, especially when starting a combo in a crouching position.

Cinder: Lose the Pryobombs, except when in Instinct. The greater majority of the Cinder’s I play, do nothing but stand on the opposite side of the screen and chunk them. Cinder is already a walking projectile and doesn’t really need them.

Orchid: slight damage nerf… and fix her hair. :stuck_out_tongue:

Jago: nothing

Hisako: Damage nerf and add more KV after her wall splat reset.

Thunder: I’d like to see Shammanish become an anti-air grapple, like Jax.

Riptor: Fix a glitch that doesn’t allow Sadira to perform a light HP manual after a Medium Linker. This is the only character this happens on. Also reduce the hit stun after her ram.

TJ Combo: Slightly reduce damage from completed Auto Barrage. Reduce hitstun after blocking his fist charge.

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You’re looking at it from a viability standpoint and while that’s certainly part of the equation, I don’t believe that it’s the one and only thing that should be considered. I feel like season 2 characters have a lot more going on, which then tend to be counterbalanced by doing less damage. Not all of them, but certainly some of them. Still, all of them seem to have enough going on to the point where many season one characters seem rather plain in comparison and I think that can be changed without sacrificing a lot (or much of anything really) when it comes to new content for season 3 (in terms of developer time).

Again, if it would be cool, then why not figure out a way to work it in? I’m not saying do a million things for every character, but if it would make a character better, then why not try a few things here and there? If it requires nerfing her damage, then so be it. Kan Ra and Cinder have to do gigantic combos to get the damage that some season one characters can do in less than half the hits.

The recapture I was talking about was rather context sensitive too and wouldn’t result in massive combos for huge damage regardless. I just think that she’s the “air character” of the game, yet other characters in sesason 2 like TJ and Cinder seem to have just as much, if not more stuff going on in the air as she has and I tend to think that could be remedied to positive results.

I don’t see how it can be cohesive if it locks you in. You’re either doing an autobarrage combo which leads to it’s own specific enders or you’re not, which leads to completely separate ender opportunities in what I’d call his more “regular” move list.

Every other character’s combo trait feels more cohesive than that (IMO) because they’re meant to be traits that they have while doing any of their combos, not just one specific, separate combo. That’s just my take on it though.

The juke doubles I was talking about are probably similar to what Hisako’s does though. I think you’re right on that. I was just trying to think of something off the top of my head and thought it’d fit more with his boxer’s style, but I agree the end result is the same.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. No question about that. In that case, either they find a way to make it less safe or simply limit it to the shadow version only, changing that move from an ender to an opener/linker. I was more just trying to say that this is a move that should be saved (in some fashion) while getting rid of fired up, but I agree that giving him the pillar permanently as a regular move would be too much.

Firmly against? Wow. I guess I didn’t expect anyone to be firmly against touching up characters and animations. Well, obviously I disagree, which is fine. You seem to think that it’s an either/or scenario and I don’t believe that has to be the case. They were able to rebalance season one characters prior to season two in what appeared to be a rather limited amount of time and I don’t think that hurt their ability to do anything as far as creating new, awesome characters and mechanics for season 2.

So he was free and required minimal developer effort, so he should remain as he is? I don’t quite understand that logic. The purpose at the time was to create a character that would allow them to spend more time on the remaining characters in the season and he served that purpose. How would it defeat anything to go back now, when they presumably have more time to do so, and rework him when there’s more than a little fan sentiment indicating that people would like to see that happen to begin with?

I’m not saying the people are always right and they should always do what people say. I’m just saying that there’s a rather known opinion about the character, regardless of what he was meant to be originally and what purpose he was meant to serve. He, like anything else in this game, can always be improved upon.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up why we disagree and that’s obviously okay. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I certainly don’t begrudge you for having an opinion that’s different than mine, so it’s all good as far as I’m concerned.

You seem to look at things from a functional standpoint only, whether something works or is broken, whether something is specifically needed or if it’s fine as is and that’s definitely a valid way to look at things.

I think that the game, in it’s beta status, can always be improved upon. When I write, I tend to go back and revise a good deal since it’s not done until it’s all completely done. I just can’t look at it through a utilitarian or minimalist lens.

I believe that many parts of the game can be made better, even the parts that aren’t broken, and I don’t think that this requires an exorbitant amount of developer time needed that could go to making new content to go elsewhere because I’ve seen what they can do with a rebalance prior to season 2 in a small amount of time. To be clear: I don’t want them to have to sacrifice anything from season 3, but in as far as I’m proposed and what other are talking about, I really don’t think they’d have to.

I’ve also mentioned stuff I’d like to see happen with the UI and other things along those lines that might seem somewhat superfluous in terms of a functional standpoint, but would certainly add to the game’s overall presentation, which I feel is somewhat important.

Given when season 3 is coming out, I’d say that they have a good deal more time this go around to make some fun things happen in a lot of areas without sacrificing anything in terms of season 3 content. If you’d rather they just went straight forward in to season 3 and ignored anything that’s happened prior, which seems to be the vibe I’m getting from you, then that’s cool. Totally understandable.

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I have a few requests, though some of them will be more silly than others.
-Make Cinder’s fake out better properties. If it’s supposed to be used to bait out attacks to be punished, it’d be nice if I didn’t get hit by that attack.
-Fulgore could use a tad bit more damage, but my biggest hope would be that he gets meter easier. Thinking that certain moves could end in the charge and get him a pip, like the fireball ender or his throw. That or his speed up the spinny thing.
-It’d be nice to make Sadira’s air combos more useful, especially since they’re breakable now. As it stands they do so little damage they’re mostly decorative. I’d ask for a recapture or some more powerful combo tools, like air autos, air linkers, and aerial enders.

Just a few ideas I had, for better or worse.

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Yeah, I think the fact that her air combos are now breakable makes up for the idea of giving her a recapture. As I said in an earlier post, I’d want it to be restrictive. Like maybe not give her the chance to knock them up in to the air, hit a few times, down the ground to recapture and then continue on with a big full combo, but maybe at least allow for a recapture down to the ground for an ender only? I don’t think that’d be so bad.

I just think that she needs more to do in the air to begin with. I mean, that’s supposed to be her “thing.” Yet TJ, Cinder and a few other characters seem to be just as adept in the air, even without an air ender that she has. I think it’d be cool to give her a sort of contextual special move that changed depending on the first hit auto you did in midair (as I said above). That’d at least give her plenty to do in the air while not being grossly overpowered.

I also agree with you on Cinder’s fake. It would almost be nice if it were a fake and then a back step or something along those lines. Something that at least gets you out of the opponents immediate vicinity so that it provides some sort of advantage beyond being a bait attempt in and of itself.

For Fulgore, I don’t know if he’d be a better character with more damage alone. I mean he’d be harder to fight, sure, but I think the idea of gaining pips off of certain moves, like maybe if you press forward and hold FP for a moment, Fulgore delays and then does the forward spin move, but he only gets a pip if he makes contact with the opponent (even if they block). So he couldn’t just sit at distance, do the move, get a pip, etc. There’d actually have to be some danger involved on his part.

I’d also like to see him get a pip off of throws. That’d be nice. Again, he’s in close with the opponent and he’s being rewarded for doing something in close. That makes sense to me.

Good ideas man!

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Everything is fine except for TJ Combo, those massive nerfs from a couple of updates ago were unnecessary. He became incredibly restrictive, there isn’t much creativity to pull off with him and he can barely make any long combos since his KV meter fills up too fast.

Bring back TJ Combo

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As you say, to a certain extent our disagreement stems from fundamental differences about how we think the team should approach the game and its development. Accordingly, I’ll try to keep my response brief - and then I’ll apologize in advance, because brevity is not one of my gifts :stuck_out_tongue:

In general, I think there are three things that matter when designing a character. (1) Are they interesting? (2) Are they fun? (3) Are they viable? These are the key items that must be taken into consideration when designing a character. (1) speaks to design, aesthetics, playstyle, and lore. (2) speaks to whether or not playstyle is enjoyable, and (3) speaks to whether or not I’m destined to get my ■■■ kicked when I take this character into the wild. When the answer to all three of these questions is a resounding “yes”, then I believe the team has done it’s job and designed a great addition to the cast.

The Season 1 characters in my opinion all fit that bill. They are unique, they are fun to play, and they remain viable. But they largely were all those things in season 1 as well. To my mind the additions they all got at the start of S2 were, for the most part, mostly centered around question 3. With the exception of Fulgore (who I think had quite a bit of (2) in his redesign, particularly for newer or less-skilled players), I felt most of the S2 additions to the S1 cast were about viability, particularly within the new ecosystem of changes that came with S2. Glacius didn’t get liquidize because it looked cool - he got it because he was getting outzoned to all hell anyway and would have gotten destroyed by Maya daggers without it. Orchid got bombs because she relies heavily on controlling space, but largely had no way to manage that space amidst KI’s shenanigans. She also needed a way to apply pressure that wouldn’t get her absolutely destroyed if someone blocked it. Spinal needed better ways to manage the fight before he got instinct, Wulf’s backdash was pure ridiculousness, etc. A little bit of (1) and (2) necessarily bleeds into these viability changes (because hey, these things are cool and fun to use), but I feel their primary purpose for the most part was to ensure good fights.

Your argument seems to some extent to be “it would be so cool if…” That’s a valid enough take on it as far as it goes, but think you miss the mark in that there genuinely is a market for simple and straightforward characters. Your rationale is that S2 has all these fancy options, so S1 characters should have some fancy options of their own. But S1 is the solid core of the game - they aren’t supposed so have super fancy options. Their archetypes are meant to be on the tamer and more straightforward side. A lot of people like this archetype, and actively disliked the focus S2 put on giving characters a tool for every occasion. I was one of them - early in the season I talked a lot about how I disliked that IG seemed to have a tendency to throw the kitchen sink at their characters in terms of movesets. Why did everyone have a command grab? Why does Kan-Ra have three different versions of the bloody thing? Why can half the S2 cast cross a full screen in under a second? A lot of players dont enjoy the somewhat shenanigansy characters of S2; a lot of players don’t like their resource dependency or their reliance on a treasure chest of moves. The simplicity of the S1 cast speaks to these types of players, and their wishes and preferences should also be taken into account.

Also, as a practical matter each of these changes or updates that you prefer does have a measurable affect on character viability and balance. Changing a moveset or playstyle necessarily changes the balance of a character. Fulgore had to have his damage nerfed because his S2 mixup potential was insane combined with his damage output, Orchid had to have her damage ender slightly reduced due to her newfound pressure options, Wulf had to have his instinct damage tweaked due to the potency of his feral cancels, etc. You stated that you don’t think adding new moves or rebalancing S1 characters takes all that much time, but IG was rebalancing them for months after they released, and lest we forget, Season 2 only launched with 2 characters - who themselves had to be rebalanced for months after their release. I’m not a game developer, but I’m pretty sure that all the rebalancing they did throughout S2 took up a significant amount of the developers’ time. I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of time and energy that goes into making character changes and then trying to make sure that those changes make sense and don’t throw the game’s balance out of whack. The character-a-month flow of content worked in that characters came out on time, but every patch also came with a hefty list of bug fixes and balancing changes. They have these characters in a good place now - I’d like to take my pound of flesh and let the devs focus 100% on awesome new content, and getting that content right before it gets to us. I was generally ok with the state of the game throughout S2, but a lot of other players felt like it was a mess of bugs and balancing issues. I see no compelling reason to mess with what is currently a very balanced game and give MS/IG even more work to do for S3. Let them focus on S3, giving us as much content as possible in the best form that they can manage. Like it or not, any work outside that goal is a tradeoff in terms of manpower and hours. That tradeoff is probably worth it in some areas - but I don’t think tweaking S1 characters in unneeded ways is one of them.

Also, as someone who mains a S1 character, I don’t particlarly feel like learning and incorporating some new random tool into my gameplay. Giving Sadira a recapture would probably mean she loses damage - I like my damage where it is right now. :smile: So she can’t convert off any stray air hit? She still gets good damage off juggles, and she has a LOT of opportunities to juggle.

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Cinder’s fakeout is already safe after LP LP LP target combo. It can’t be safe in other situations (target combos ending in MP, for instance) or else the move would be way too good. But really, it’s a way for him to transition out of LP LP LP, which is his best string, into a real mixup because everything else is just a block string for the most part.

On the topic of Sadira, a recapture is not a good idea, because it would let her cash out damage from air juggles without having meter. That’s a very intentional balance decision and I don’t think it’s wise for her to have. And I don’t think air doubles/air linkers are on the table either (unless they’re for a new S3 character), because right up front, without talking about the advantages/drawbacks of such a system, the cost of changing the engine to include those would be too high, I think. If they’re gonna change the engine for that, it will be for a brand new character.

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slightly buff Fulgore’s damae to 3% that is all

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TJ Was always there, watch ProDeath. Everyone relied so heavily on his braindead Auto Barrage any str manual off any str linker that they never tried to learn good tech with him. His combo’s were so random that you could button mash your way to a level 4 ender and battery for 45% and then just rinse repeat.

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Haha, don’t worry about that man. I fail at that almost every time and I don’t mind reading, so feel free to get it all out there. :grin:

And I agree with these three things as you’ve laid them out. However, in a game that’s in this sort of “perma-beta” stage, I look at everything and add a 4th step to my analysis: Could this be improved upon?

This is especially necessary (to me) when you have a second season that’s really rather different than the first one. You talk about kitchen sink characters later on and I agree, some of them could stand to be toned down a bit. I already mentioned one aspect as it pertains to Cinder specifically.

But I also look at the game as a whole, cohesive unit, and when see characters with perhaps too much going on at one end of the spectrum, it’s hard not to look at the other end of the spectrum and see characters that could stand to have more.

I mean, we look at other aspects of the game and we do this all the time. Well, many of us do anyways. Maybe not all… But the UI for example. The UI was completely overhauled for season two and it wouldn’t shock me if they overhauled large portions of it again. It’s not just from a functional standpoint either. There are parts of it that could stand to be improved upon from a purely aesthetic standpoint.

I’ll certainly agree with this. The changes before were about viability to a large extent. So while you’re spot on there when it comes to why they did this in the first place, it still doesn’t change the fact that they’re willing to go back and make changes, regardless of the motivation for making those changes.

Now, we might disagree as to the circumstances under which making such changes are acceptable, but to me, if the game is in perma-beta and they’ve done it before, then why not look through what’s completed and say “can we make that better?” and run a fine toothed comb through it, so to speak.

Maybe we’re getting our signals crossed then, if that’s what you think my sole motivation is here. It’s not just a matter of “wouldn’t it be cool if.” Yes, freshening up some of the older characters that tend to lack some of the flash that later season one or most season two characters have is part of it, but I’m also talking about closing the gap in the spectrum between the less flashy, simpler characters and the kitchen sink characters. Part of that is cohesion between seasons, part of that is general game cohesion and part of that is simply trying to put forward the best versions of characters possible and not being satisfied with something simply because it’s completed already.

I’ve never written anything and said “that’s done” and never looked at it again. Doesn’t matter if it’s a tweet or a novel. If it can be improved upon, or if I think of something later that might punch it up a bit, I see no reason not to do so. That’s just how I tend to approach things. Yes, there’s always the chance that “improving” something could have disastrous, unintended consequences, but that’s a chance I’m willing to take.

I don’t really believe this. The gameplay for all seasons is the core of the game, not just season one. The fact that DH made season one without super fancy options doesn’t mean that’s the vision for the whole game or what IG’s trying to do.

I understand and respect the fact that you prefer season one’s approach. Really, I do. That’s why I think that things can be done to season one characters without turning them in to kitchen sink characters. I think that things can be added to their repertoires without undermining what they’re supposed to be and how they’re supposed to function.

You mentioned that everyone has a command grab. Doesn’t that kinda take away from Thunder being “the grappler” in the game? Couldn’t he use another throw, even if it accomplishes what his other throw does, just for simple variety’s sake? Maybe instead of simply doing an a stomp down to the ground of of Sammamish, he does a type of air throw that has the same properties as the stomp?

Again, I’m not looking to change him or what he does. I’m not saying give him a teleport move or whatever, since I know that would completely nullify his major weakness and make him grossly OP.

Others have said that giving Sadira a recapture would be too much for her. That’s fine. I still like the idea as I proposed it within the strict guidelines that I laid out, but I’m not immovable on anything here. I’m just throwing out ideas, which was more or less the intention of this thread. If people feel that every character is fine and nothing should change once it’s been done, that’s okay too. I just tend to think that something great can be made even better, and was looking to others imaginations for how that might look.

You might be right. With the roster still growing in size, I’m sure it’s much harder to balance the game than it was say… Near the beginning of season one. But I do think that balancing is a fluid process that will be done in season 3 regardless. Does throwing more variables (aka more changes for older characters) in to the mix make that a more difficult job? I’m sure it would and I’m not trying to belittle that process.

My whole point was to try and find ways to augment what older characters already do and find ways to streamline the movesets for some of the newer, more kitchen-sink type characters. I’m not trying to drastically change what any character can do or what they’re meant to be. So while I realize that even in requesting this kind of alteration, it would still require a good deal of testing, balancing, and overall development time. Believe me, I have no illusions about that fact. It’s more that I still believe it’s a worthwhile endeavor, and that in requesting changes that are still consistent with the characters intended move sets, I believe that this can be done without quite a much of a headache as you seem to think it would cause. I’m not a developer either, so you may be completely right in that it’s too much time and too much effort. Doesn’t mean that I don’t still want to see that effort put in either prior to season 3, during season 3 or at some point after season 3.

If the game isn’t a final, pressed disc that they have no plans to alter in the future, and it’s a “living platform” as was described by Ken Lobb initially, then I say keep improving anything that can be improved upon. If it can be better balanced, do so. If you can add some cool effects to a move that make it look better without changing what it does or its hit boxes? Great. If a character is supposed to specialize in a certain skill set or fighting style and a move can be put in that doesn’t throw them out of balance with any of the other characters? That sounds good to me as well.

Yeah, I definitely get the “season one resistance” vibe from you. :smile: It’s cool man. I respect what you’re saying here. You like season one the way it is and you’ve outlined a really good argument for why you prefer things the way that you do.

I saw a lot of similar points about season one, from the UI to the character changes prior to season 2. IG is never going to please everyone, of course. I just think that they can improve upon season 1 in very specific ways where it gives me more of the flash, variety and freshness that I’m looking for without destroying that which you currently look to as the core of the game. I believe that could be done and that would be my goal with what I’d like for them to do.

If I made it seem as though I want them to run roughshod over season 1 and tear it apart and rebuild it in their image, that certainly was not my intent. If you don’t think that they can give us both what we want, or you think that giving me what I want automatically means that you get jobbed in the deal, then I get that apprehension. But from a theoretical perspective, I’d like to think that we can both get the KI game that matches what we think it should be with what I’m talking about here.

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What if her recapture was only available if she started a combo on the ground (or popped the opponent up in to the air from the ground) and the recapture move had to be done right away, dropping the opponent to the ground and pulling Sadira down for recapture with a full KV meter (no matter what) and her only option was a specific ender that wouldn’t allow her to follow up for more damage in air?

In other words, put so many restrictions on it as far as when it can be used and what damage the ender cashes out that it’s simply an option to use in air from a ground to air combo and not a massive new element added to her repertoire. Would that be better, or am I still totally off base here?

Would you like to see Sadira get anything, either along the lines of the other things that I proposed for her in my post above or just in general? Stuff that could help her be more of “the air” character compared to TJ, Cinder and others that also seem to be quite capable in air as well?

Mind you, I’m not asking you if you think her air game is viable or if she “needs” anything to be more viable. I’m not asking from a basic utility standpoint, because I know she’s viable, obviously. I’m just asking if there’s anything you’d do to freshen her up a little bit? Maybe give her a little more flash or style?

Or maybe help her do what she does a little more without breaking what she’s supposed to do to begin with or making her OP? Do you think that’s possible, and if so, what would some of those changes look like? Just curious.

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I appreciate your willingness to read and engage with my walls of text. :slight_smile: As we’ve both agreed at this point our issues stem from fundamentally different (but reasonable) approaches to things, I’ll only address a few items.

I appreciate that you think my arguments were reasonable, but I think you may have slightly misjudged me. My Sadira comment was laced with more than a hint of flippancy. She’s still technically my main, but I play Hisako almost as much if not more these days, and my tertiary character is ARIA. I’ve actually tended to be one of the stronger proponents of S2, at least once I’d gotten some time to settle into IG’s flow (and when they made it clear they were intent on toning down some of the more blatant crap their characters could pull coughoriginalMayacough). I’m actually ok with their kitchen sink characters for the most part, and I don’t mind that almost all their characters had recaptures or that half of them had special meters and mechanics. It’s cool, because each of these very unique and interesting characters speaks to a different kind of player who’s looking for a different thing. It’s not that I think S1 is perfect and shouldn’t be changed, and it’s not that I think S2 characters do too much and need to be streamlined - it’s that I think both styles speak to different audiences and I think the variation between seasons allows each type of player to find something he likes. My arguments about not changing things weren’t so much for myself, but for those players who really do prefer the more straightforward nature of S1, and who train and like to be able to know exactly what they’re getting with their chosen character without having to wait for the other shoe to drop, so to speak.

With regards to making the simple “flash” tweaks you mentioned, it’s not that I’m opposed to the team touching things up or making them cooler, it’s just that in a world of finite time and competing resources I would prefer that the devs instead spend their energy making new kick-■■■ characters and content. Sure, they could add a cool looking air throw for Thunder that somehow functions exactly like skyfall - but I’d rather they take that time to give some new character some variation on that that doesn’t function exactly like skyfall, and incorporates some awesome new twist on things. I want them to take the time they could spend touching up Omen (whose design I actually like) designing a completely new character with an engaging backstory and an awesome moveset. It’s not that I think the previous seasons can’t be made better - it’s that I want the developers to devote their time and energy making new content and making it the very best it can be. Sure, revamp the UI - but do it for S3, not to simply go back and tweak what we already have. There’s no need to make S1 characters more flashy or S2 characters somehow simpler - just make S3 characters fill the happy medium. And then when S4 comes, sprinkling in characters from all over the spectrum. Make sure existing content is balanced, fun, and varied, and once that is accomplished go on to making brand new content for us to enjoy. That’s more of where I’m coming from.

On the above (which I know wasn’t directed at me), I’d say that to a certain extent we all have to collectively get over the idea that Sadira rules the air. She certainly did in S1, but with the advent of Omen and Cinder that supremacy is no longer complete. The thing is, though, is that’s ok. No “tweak” to Sadira’s air game will change the fact that Cinder does 20-hit aerial juggles, no recapture (that wouldn’t be completely broken) will negate the fact that TJ’s tremor can pluck nearly any jump from the sky with the right read. No small, flashy addition will mean that Omen can’t do some absolutely disgusting setups with his air dash and a bar of meter. But again, that’s ok. Sadira is disgusting in the air, she’s still nearly impossible to block in instinct, and she still has a pretty darn good aerial conversion ability. She was conceived as an aerial dominance character - that doesn’t mean that no one can ever match or exceed her in aspects of that as the game continues. It’s fine that there are other characters crowding her skies - so long as they are all unique and viable in their own ways it’s all good.

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You bet, man! Same here, no doubt. :grin:

I think that I did, actually. From the way you were talking about kitchen sink characters of season 2 and the way you seemed to be leaning toward season one by calling it “the core” of the game and a few smaller examples, I just inferred a bit of bias when I probably shouldn’t have. My bad!

And I get that, I do. It’s just that I personally think that the difference in options each character has in season one versus season two is so jarring that I think there could still be some evening out and sort of moving the outer edges of the spectrum closer together without forgoing that sense of variety that you’re talking about.

I mean… I look at Jago and Sabrewulf on one end and Kan Ra and Cinder on the other and as a Sabrewulf main, I can’t help but think that my character got jobbed a bit when he was created. Is he viable? Certainly. But does he entertain me as much as some other characters? Eh… It’s not just in the number of options or whatever, but in overall style and flash as well.

I think that you can add a move here and there, add some style and flash and what not, and still keep the characters from season one straight forward. That’s what I’d want to see anyways. I don’t think that anything I’m proposing here is overly drastic.

Absolutely, this is the balance. I just don’t personally know how much enhancing season one and two would cost in terms of taking energy away from making new characters and content. You seem to think of the time as this finite space, and if I knew that there was an awesome mode that wouldn’t be made because of what I’m talking about, or they’d have to trim the roster or something like that, I’d be right there with you. It’s not worth it.

But we really don’t know that. If they have the time to do both… To give us the kind of season three that they want to give us AND touch up season one and two, then that’s what I’d want to see happen.

See I find these two statements a bit strange. It’s okay that her air supremacy is no longer complete given what other characters can do and just because she was known for that, doesn’t mean others can’t match or exceed her in aspects of that.

Wouldn’t you agree that TJ and Cinder have much more going on in terms of their ground assault? So if they’re that much better AND more varied on the ground and they can match or exceed what she can do in the air, then isn’t she somewhat obsolete from a character design perspective?

Now that’s not to say she’s pure garbage on the ground. She’s not. But compared to TJ and Cinder? Again, I’m not talking about a viability perspective here. I know that she can hang with any other character in the game thanks to what she has in the air, her instinct, her damage, etc. But from a merely conceptual perspective, the idea of what she’s meant to be able to do, wouldn’t it benefit her construct to have more options in the air, if for no other reason then to solidify what she’s supposed to be to begin with?

Just because a character doesn’t get their can handed to them doesn’t mean their concept can’t be further enhanced or the core of their gameplay strengthened or reinforced.

Which kinda gets back to my main point. Whenever someone brings up changes or ideas for characters, there’s a substantial pocket of people that tend to react with “that’s not needed” or that’s fine as it is." If it’s “that make them OP,” that’s one thing. That’s a balance standpoint and I’m all for balance. But to me, that’s not the question. Also, if you simply prefer what a character has to what someone is proposing the character should have, I get that. I do.

But for me, it’s not a matter of if the car starts or if you like the old paint job more than the new one. But can the car be upgraded in ways without taking time away from other, more pressing needs? If that can be done, what upgrades would you want to see? Hopefully the car runs more smoothly than this metaphor lol, but I think you get what I’m saying here.

If they can give us season 3 exactly as they want to give it to us and they have the ability to improve upon previous characters either by reinforcing what they can do or giving them some more style and flash, again without hurting the game’s balance… I guess I just don’t see why that would be a bad thing or something undesirable. If it can’t be done, it can’t be done. But if KI’s to remain in this beta form, I’d like to see them continue to improve upon anything and everything. Keep going with the UI, keep going with the older characters, keep putting out new content. Keep KI evolving, even is as you keep it balanced and most importantly familiar to those already playing (in other words, don’t turn Jago in to a grappler out of nowhere lol).

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If it’s possible to make the absolute best version of S3 and do little tweaks to update characters, then sure, why not? I just don’t think that is generally possible. In business there are always tradeoffs, and the videogame industry is somewhat notorious for tending to operate within very demanding deadlines. Keits has mentioned a few times in Twitch streams that the team was working consistent 12 hour days trying to keep up with the S2 schedule. And from the perspective of the developer, upgrading things that the consumer has already paid for tends to be a less solid investment than making something new for the consumer to purchase.

I wouldn’t actually. Or rather, I would for TJ, and would not for Cinder. But TJ, contra what you keep saying, doesn’t actually have an air game - he has a single move that he can use to catch juggles and jumpers. That does not an air game make in my opinion. TJ comes nowhere near matching or exceeding Sadira in the air, period. Omen is perhaps a better example, but he too is largely committed when performing his shenanigans in the air, while Sadira always has a host of options.

Cinder’s ground game isn’t super spectacular. He has a tough time in general opening people up, trailblazer has awful priority, and most of his approaches rely on sticking you with pyre bombs. His super-close range pressure is pretty scary, but his normals actually aren’t very good outside that space. Does Cinder have more options on the ground? Sure. But in absolute terms, his ground game isn’t all that phenomenal IMO. His air game is also not spectacular in absolute terms - the only thing that makes it noteworthy is how easily he can convert a stray hit into his recapture. Trailblazer juggles are pretty, sure, but trailblazer itself isn’t great outside of pyre bombs holding someone in place because the priority is so terrible. So yeah, I think Sadira’s air game is better than his too. Her juggles aren’t as flashy or as hard to recognize, but she gets far more b.ang (really censors? -_-) for her buck from what she’s got, and I think that counts for something. So yeah, I’ll give Cinder his win on the ground compared to Sadie, but I’d disagree pretty strongly that he matches her in the air.

Sadira will not be obsolete from a character design perspective until they make someone who is as impossible to reliably anti-air as she is, and who has as many strong options off a raw jump as she does. Cinder gets a lot off taking to the air - including some things that Sadira does not. I just don’t see why that is such an issue - she also gets things off her jump that Cinder does not. Character archetypes aren’t this untouchable totem where someone having something all of a sudden makes everyone else who has that same thing obsolete or useless. Hisako has a command grab, so does Thunder. Hisako having two command grabs doesn’t mean she’s a “better” grappler than Thunder or that he’s now obsolete - their grabs each have their own properties that make them better suited to different things and work within the context of the characters’ moves and gameplan. Same with Sadira and all the other aerial characters. There’s room enough in the sky for all of them to coexist, so long as each of their gameplans remain unique and viable.

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  1. Get rid of Cinder’s pillar on that stupidly safe flashkick
  2. The block stun on Cinders ground pound whiffs is too long.
  3. Sadira doesn’t take that much skill to play with, not sure if anything can be done. Horribly annoying spam character straight from an NRS game.
  4. Too easy to teleport in this game. Should be slowed down or metered.
  5. Kan-Ra is a terribly designed zoner. Floods the screen with dustballs and has to many escape options. Glacius is another so-called zoner with alot of escape options and bail out wake ups.Look at Dahlsim for an idea of how to design one of these types.
  6. I don’t like Rash in the lineup, at all. Just my opinion.

…I could go on and on…KI is a great game though. Nobody can agree on everything.

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Yeah that’s what I’m mainly getting at. If it’s possible. If this is something that they’re already budgeting in to their time. If the time is available. I know that there is a finite amount of time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that taking time to do one thing would automatically take time away from something else. I know that seems like an odd thing to say, but if they have the time to devote to season one and season two changes. If that’s available somehow, I’d like to see it.

Yeah, but look at the time frame within which season two was created. From everything I’ve read, IG had only been doing actual work on the game for about a month before show TJ at E3. They then started putting out content roughly four months later and then every month after. That’s a torrid pace to have to maintain.

In comparison, season 2 ended before E3 this year and while they’re working on Shadow Jago and more Shadows, it’s relatively safe to assume that they’ve been working in some capacity on season 3 for at least a few months now, and they have another seven months before season 3 actually starts up. Granted, we don’t know how much will actually appear at the beginning of season 3, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that with a much more experience under their belts and seemingly a good deal more time to put the next season together, the deadlines and breakneck pace of development should (hopefully) ease up to something more reasonable.

He also has two 1-2 punch combos in mid air as well. TJ has the ability to combo an opponent up in to the air, hit them twice, then return them to the ground for more damage. His air game might not be on Sadira’s level, but it’s still pretty good from where I’m sitting. Maybe that ability doesn’t constitute an air game to you, but to me, he at least has some options when he gets an opponent off the ground. Two small combos and the ability to return them to the ground for more damage. That’s not nothin. :grin:

Yeah, I knew the word “obsolete” was a bit strong when I used it. I know what you mean about archetypes and I also get what you’re saying about Thunder and Hisako. The same could be said for TJ and Sadira in this regard, as what they do in the air is completely different.

When I say that Sadira’s the “air” character, I know I’m probably putting her in a box by saying that she should be the best at it, but my issue isn’t that others have an air game and “that’s her thing.” It’s that others have an air game and a good deal more in addition to that and she doesn’t a whole lot, at least not to the extent that some others (like Omen or Cinder, for example) tend to have.

That’s more of why I’d want to see her get more going on in the air. Not because her air game must be improved because she’s the air character and others can do stuff in the air. I completely agree that there’s enough room in the sky for all of them to coexist. No doubt.

But that’s sort of my issue with a lot of the season one characters. Since many of them were more or less conceived around a certain archetype while season two seems to blend archetypes or iterate off of multiple archetypes, it tends to make some of the season one characters feel a bit bland in comparison.

Now, when I say that, I’m not looking for IG to take Sabrewulf and give him a teleport and a command grab and what not. For me, it’s more of an issue of “how can we give the season one characters more variety without changing what they’re supposed to do?” It’s also a matter in some cases of how can IG give characters a bit more flash in their move sets, again, without changing the moves intentions.

These are the types of things that I’d be looking to do to improve season one characters (along with streamlining some of season two’s characters). I know you don’t see this as a necessity and that’s fine. I would like to see characters continue to grow and evolve over time as the game grows and evolves over time. I think that can be done, and I’d hope that it could be done without sacrificing anything in terms of season 3 content. If they already intend to go in and rebalance season’s one and two in preparation for season 3 though, then it’d be nice if they could revaluate the whole roster and see how characters can be improved upon in a variety of areas without changing what they do and how they were conceived.

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The function of TJ’s 1-2 target combo in the air is not materially different from what anyone in the cast can do with a single air normal. He cannot pop you up, 1-2 you in the air, and then return you to the ground within combo. He can choose to 1-2 you and let you fall, or choose to catch you with tremor for the recap. Maya gets more off of her air juggles with dagger->dagger->mantis. His 1-2 isn’t special, and in any case, Sadira can 1-2-3 you with light->medium-medium, and still follow up with additional juggles. Even Kan has better air options, in that he can at least cancel an air normal into scarabs on hit. Anyone with a juggle ender can pop someone up into the air and then hit them once or twice more…I guess the fact that cyclone pops them high enough to allow TJ time to jump up to tag them again is something unique, but I can’t find myself able to call that an “air game”.

On the other things, I’ll just say let’s agree to disagree. We’ve probably taken up enough of this thread with our back and forth.

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Lolwut. You’re saying that the most immobile character in the game has too many escape options? Bruh…

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Is that right? That must’ve been taken out of the game at some point. I specifically remember when TJ came out, someone showing me a combo where they did exactly that and I learned it. Unfortunately, it’s been forever since I’ve used TJ regularly enough to even recall it and the person told me on the old board so I have no way to find it.

If they removed this, then I definitely stand corrected. :grin:

Sorry I couldn’t convince you, but I think that we can at least agree that if, given the right circumstances, the team were to go back and rebalance season one and season two in preparation for season three, that they had time to add a little here and there without forcing them to work 12 hour days and without hurting the current balance of the game, that older characters could be spruced be spruced up a bit.

I now that this isn’t your first choice of how IG should spend their time (or second or third lol), but at the very least, I think you see where I’m coming from and why, even if we might not be on the same page with the overall idea to begin with. Regardless, I thought it was a good conversation and I appreciate you point of view.

As for the topic itself, does anyone have any other ideas in terms of how they would improve existing characters, either from gameplay/mechanical standpoint or from a more aesthetic/flasth standpoint? Curious if there are any other ideas that people might have for either season one or season two characters.