Growing the Community: Combo Assist Mode Discussion

General Discussion
529

Overall fair enough.

But then what is with all this attempted finding of tech that side-steps or delays the Combo-Counter System in the unassisted mode (unbreakables and such)… Yet these ways of using the system as intended to play is an issue in the assisted system?
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I have re-ask, but not direct this necessarily at you, how is “using the game’s mechanics to play the game” NOT a legitimate response? Especially with using the Heavy button as an example of what to do against a non-playing dummy.

Patches remove or reduce the effectiveness of many of the fun and combo system avoiding strings… There is certainly no problem to allowing breakable, fun combo using strings. (Unless they are proven too powerful).

Especially when the example used was a 19% damage with Jago that had to be dropped because one was trying to manual the more easily broken heavy!
That combo is 1% less than an uncomboed heavy DP. And as just mentioned, it’s relatively easy to land a heavy manual with Jago’s timing (you really have to surge double-tap HP to get a heavy AD most times).

And there’s an OS on dropping that combo for a non-reset? Yes, they’ve maintained block pressure with Jago, but Jago dropped the combo timing and it’s better to be in block pressure than combo pressure right?

AND on top of the above paragraphs, many Shadow Moves, or a raw/reversal/anti-air DP that takes reasonable timing with dexterity skill, can be buffered against the Heavy Laser Sword, or an escaping back-dash can be used to get out of pressure and possibly punish a whiffed follow-up.

Simply finding OS’s and stating they exist in one form or another with the different control schemes is nothing compared to applying them!
WE KNOW THIS.
Why is there a problem is finding greater ways to randomize the meta-game, to prevent it from being solved, while a the same time, NOT BREAKING IT because these new moves are not unbreakables?..All the while helping to make the system more accessible?

Are we watching and playing KI because it’s a 1-way fight every time someone is opened up or is it because we never know what someone is going to do next?

IG “fixed” the Wild West S1 Manuals… So we know if there is something detrimental to their vision, it will get massaged.
The game doesn’t care someone learned to use the system via MK-like or SF-like inputs, only that you know the system.
Playing to win doesn’t care about inputting the Konami code in 1.5 seconds to get a 20% damage unbreakable combo vs a simple 19% constant HP press. Especially when being able to time and execute a DP out of combo yields a 20% chunk with heavy knockdown.

If you fear CAM, why not use it?

530

So you have a problem posting a possibly serious advantage tech that the devs need to know about because you’re afraid some people will try to make a case for/against it? Why not just post a video, then let people talk? At the end of the day, if its broken, the devs will take note and fix it.
I’m curious to see the tech, and I respect that you’ve gone through quite a bit of testing to find it, but I do not appreciate the attitude of not sharing with the community, regardless of what certain people might say.

531

Not sure if you were trying to reply to me or the gentleman who quoted me, but I’ll take a stab at a response.

I, for one, am not against CAM, and have never been. I’ve stated multiple times actually that I think it is a good system, and am against using it to segregate online play as I think it would be less healthy for the community overall. I simply tend to agree that at highest levels of play, there should not exist OS’s for one control system that are simply impossible to reproduce with the standard (non-assisted) control system. That is what I’ve gathered Lycan’s beef with it is as well.

As to “why not use it yourself”, I simply tend to think that if I’ve dropped an input, then I sucked it up and deserve whatever comes my way, as negative outcomes will help me to be more precise in the future with my inputs. With respect to potential CAM OS’s, I simply find OS’s of all kinds to be degenerate and generally dislike them. I personally like it when a player has to make a meaningful choice in neutral or in oki, as I think that makes a far more interesting game. SFIV’s option selects for option selects wasn’t good for the game IMO. That’s no salt against those using them, and even I come off my high horse for certain things (OS’ing TJ’s wakeup for instance), but I just personally dislike having the game decide what the correct call is because I’ve thrown a bunch of junk at it that I now want it to interpret favorably for me.

Again, I’ve absolutely no beef against OS’s outside of my own personal preferences. It’s a competition and you should play to win with every tool at your disposal. But I do think that it would be a bit silly for a tournament to allow players to use a system that lets them perform otherwise impossible option selects, or that otherwise covers missed inputs with favorable outcomes. That’s just where my “purity of the game” mindset kicks in. I’m fine with it providing whatever small advantage it might in an online environment, but in tournament I think you should be forced to “own” your inputs, for good and for ill. I’ll accept that at that highest level you’re probably not dropping combos, but the addition of new option selects that simply are not possible under standard controls is a bridge too far for me.

2 Likes
532

https://account.xbox.com/de-de/gameclip/62c052ee-2d51-4f7f-a8fc-929c946cbdad?gamerTag=Lycan%20Naryko&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df

Additional info any normal into any strength ca punch works.

No comments from me on how to integrate it into setups - no comments from me on thats no big deal.

Any advanced player knows what this means.

3 Likes
533

I played KI for the first time after the CAM was installed. I did not use it, but when I was playing due to this forum, I could not help but think, was my opponent using it or not. When I won or lost, I came to the same conclusion, that when I lost, it wasn’t because this person was potentially using this system. It was mainly because of the decisions that I or they made. A lot of the loses were because of match up unfamiliarity with Shago. Still can’t figure out how to battle that character yet. But I feel over all, that many of the players I faced gave me a good challenge, whether they were using it or not. Then there were some that I could tell were very green to the game even at a killer rank.

534

Can you show an advance player applying a counter?

I don’t see attempted Shadow Counters (after the 1st string was completed), aerial kicks, Instinct pops, or any special or Shadow move with invulnerable start-up?

Why is Glacius trying to escape against TJ with jumps while in the corner?

535

quote myself: any advanced player knows what this means

Find out for yourself. No comments further.

@doobydude23

See what i mean? A few minutes later unnescessary questions and trying to downplay.

536

As an addendum, i would say that any advanced TJ player would know what this means. And a lot of us here are not advanced.
What I see is a decent OS, and someone asking if it can be beat. No need to take offense, I told you earlier you can let people talk.
I mean, if that Glacius has the opportunity to jump in between there, he has the opportunity to block, Shadow Counter or pop Instinct also. So the question is fair. It would be interesting to see if this beats out any or all of those options.
Basically, explain with a cool head, maybe people understand, maybe they ask more questions. As long as one person stays calm then we can all have a discussion without it getting out of hand.

1 Like
537

So as far as I am concerned,they are all related to opener assist. Opener assist is the problem and not the whole thing am I right? I do agree Opener assist needs some work. However,not playing against anyone who is using CAM is not the best idea. How about for Opener assist,you need to do the motion but it is an easier motion? For the laser sword,you need to press down back. Etc. This can renove the combo assists option select. while still making it easy enough. What you are showing isn’t the combo assist as a whole being broken. It is just the opener combo assist. Can you find any that doesn’t involve opener assist? Also why would Tj keep on dropping the combo instead of continuing it?

538

the jump was just to show the os and the inputs to it.

I just throw in conditioning and command grabs, setups to stuff wakeups, frametraps and more.

@Sasuke99I

Yes you are right.

1 Like
539

I’m advanced but I don’t see the OS. At least can’t see for certain.

It looks like you are OS ing a throw by plinking the lights and they turn into a normal->opener on jump.

But in practice mode input display, a “simultaneous input” that would be valid as a throw does not always read that way by being shown as stacked on the side.

540

Oh, I see it.

I think in the meantime until IG makes a patch perhaps that should be fuzzyable, as chute toss has significantly more startup than a manual canceled into OS’d opener/linker.

So if a TJ player is OS ing their linkers and you are holding up looking for chute toss just delay it by some frames.

541

if it was that hard to do :grin:

The ca assist reads even your pre jump frames and os into tremor any strength - if your grounded the spinfist (0 on block comes out)

542

By all means, as an advanced player too good to compete, are you now the best TJ Combo player out there, or are we all equally the best as soon as we land this in a corner?

543

It is definitely something that should be patched out.

There’s no reason CAM needs to pick the optimal opener for the player. Just give them an opener hardwired to the button

1 Like
544

you are by far the most annoying person with questions that you can answer for yourself if you go to training and test.

Where did i said corner only? And where did i say im the best tj? By far i am not but i am advanced player (regardless of character) enough to realize that this os is pretty damn good and impossible to do without cam.

What exactly are you trying to proof? Explain what is your mission?

I just shared a damn good os only possible due to the intoduction of cam. You can be sure i will never ever share any os i find on this forum cause i simply have enough of people like you.

545

I have no idea how to PM, so what is this OS you found? Also saw your ranking on ranked for a second, you had 900 + points, so pretty decent player I would say. Couldn’t find you again to see your win % in ranked. I am still sub .500

546

TJ will automatically get a recapture opener on an airborne opponent, but it will be a spin fist if the opponent is not airborne. Both coming from the same input.

Normally if TJ does a normal into spin fist and the opponent jump right before this, it will just do a knockdown, but in this case the game detects the opponent is airborne/pre-jump frames and adjusts the opener accordingly for a recapture.

It is good because TJ’s recapture is very negative on block and having the game only use it when it knows it will hit is very convenient.

4 Likes
547

Clearly, I am in the Training Room right now. 4 day old baby in one hand, 3 other kids in the other. (it’s actually easier to type and run around after them than it is to play.)

How powerful is this OS or is it just another option within the meta-game?

Great, you found something only CAM can do… What does it REALLY mean? Are we dealing with an OG Oicho Throw-like string? Does it and other moves need to be patched or altered and why? Certainly not simply because they exist… Is it really a bug? (as the system is suppose to have human-like reflexes).

Your high and mighty attitude of being too good for anyone in CAM is the issue, not my questioning of seeing the moves, finding out how they can fit in the meta-game, and perhaps even evolve their use or the defenses against them.

SHOW ME THE MONEY. Otherwise, back you off on your posture. (Also, remember the Valle CC.)

548

Thank you.

@Sheptastic0312

My Tj is really medicore (lvl 34)

My Ranked win stats (though they mean nothing) is at 70% with 1900 games played.

My 3 characters i played most in ranked

Are Jago at 69%
Cinder at 70%
Glacius at 70%

So im only ok i think. But i barely play ranked anymore only vs friends in private lobbys or matches and my winrate there is lower at 66% with 7800 games played.

Though i have to mention my save got resetted once so the number of games is actually higher.

If you want we can play a set and i can show the os depending on where you are from. Cause im from europe.

@thyreapermc

You are right. My fault.

Actually i found a new good one with another character but since it only adds to the meta - i dont care any longer and will not post them any more. Call me selfish but i can not stand those personal offendings from people like you anymore. I love KI and my intention was to show why this mode in its current state is not a only good addition.

And tbh im having fun finding those - so adding cam is actually fun for me (so i am about to change my mind about cam).