Actually, I always thought the DP ultra was dumb. Why should Sabrewulf, TJ, and Riptor have super easy ultras and most of the cast have easy rolls and then Fulgore and the Jago’s get a DP? I don’t think most intermediate players miss a lot of DP ultras, but I would agree that this is easier. I wish they had set it up this way in the first place.
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I don’t want to dismiss arguments of those who say that complex controls and execution are reasons they play a certain fighting game. In this respect, I have always liked this pic:
Personally, I am still neutral as I still have to see what the ultimate effect/outcome is once fixes have been made and we are a few months down the road. But, making it easier to control the game in order to increase the positive experience for beginners/intermediates is a good thing. Also, necessary for longevity, etc.
At the same time, I don’t want to dismiss the fact that choosing a game for its complexity is a valid reason for consumers. The only reason I couldn’t keep my interest in games like Dragonball Z, MKX is the simplicity of controls and limited amount of distinct moves per character. Maybe, not core aspects for developers to sell their game, but nonetheless features (tons of moves, heavy on execution) some do appreciate as these things further add to the Strategy options that can be implemented in the game.
Difficult discussion, but I am sure things get fixed if they don’t work as intended.
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if they fix everything than fine.
And actually i thought about possible fixes myself like instead of just translating f+hp into ender maybe translate f+hp into dp motion + hp within combo state and 2 to 4 frames directly out of combo state. Same for the opener assist translate the second button press into the motion instead of the special tag.
Than it would be equal in terms of options i think. I maybe wrong but in theory this would remove some os. Still left right mixup will still be nerfed but still some stuff should be fixed with it.
And to your plain statement about what i dont want new players to do or not to do. My concern is about advanced players abusing the system to their advantage and getting the edge over someone who does not use it. So stop saying what i want and what not. What you did is plain offending and btw i never said it should be excluded from competitive play - i said i want a option in exhibition and lobby mode to not play against someone who uses it. I dont care if they allow it at various tournaments.
And didnt i played you in a longer set - i think we did. So you should know that i have no problems in playing and win vs people that are new - regardless of combo assist. Actually i feel better to not beat up players that are new or not at my skill level but thats just me.
Is cam allowed at winter brawl?
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I find it very similar to simple mode in UMCV3 which nobody had a problem with that…yet this thread is…idk what to call it…its like a jungle
Whatever it grows the community and I think were all cool with that
/thread
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I would imagine no one is bringing it up because in general, games are being neither won nor lost over someone dropping an ultra. If I lose a game because my opponent did not drop his ultra, then I had the loss coming anyway and need to do better.
We’ve all had instances where we miss ultras, and we’ve probably all had times when our opponents have done the same. But it simply is not a deciding factor in the vast, vast majority of games played, and becomes almost nonexistent at upper-intermediate to high level play. You get a hit, you go into ultra. If you’re mashing on your opener in the CAM system, you’re going to get an extra AD that you don’t want just like if you were mashing the button playing “straight up”. Easier ultra inputs are simply a non-factor.
The ONLY character I can think of who might benefit from it in some small way above medium skill levels might be Hisako, who can get weird wrath cancels off certain manuals into ultra. But I haven’t tested it (CAM annoyed me and was instantly disabled), so who’s to say you still can’t get wonky counter cancels even with CAM on? And again, annoying as it is, I can probably count on one hand the number of games I’ve lost because I got counter cancel instead of ultra. It’s just not a factor once you’re above a certain level.
Ok. This mode is not helping a friend. He cannot grasp the concept of pressing different buttons instead pressing one button over and over again. I showed him how predictable it is by breaking it but he cannot press other buttons. He said why when you can already do combos with one button. I give up. He cannot understand that if you recgonize the strength,you an easily break it. Even dojo mode won’t help. He just presses the same button(a). He doesn’t even understand ending combos and why you should do it. He says he can already do long combos. When will he learn? I don’t know. Stay tuned for the story of the friend who can’t learn. True story I kid you not. How good someone gets depends on how well they can understand the combo system.
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Taking it at face value that you aren’t “a loon”, you have to keep a sense of the history of these forums in mind: for as long as I remember, we’ve had to cope with lunatics coming here and making a huge scene over dumb things.
We’ve had gore fetishists complain rabidly and to absolutely no end about the lack of dismemberment and visible character damage in matches, even after the devs stepped in and told them that it’s not going to happen and that they’re getting too abrasive and/or passive-aggressive about it. There was the legion of people who got it into their head that all the season 2 characters were bad because they noticed that a lot of them happened to have certain traits in common – recaptures, command grabs, complex movesets, instincts that enhanced existing tools rather than giving new tools, etc – and decided those traits were the bane of all things, and mindlessly rioted against IG over it for several months. Basically at the drop of the hat we seem to get a bunch of insane ■■■■■■■■ ranting senselessly about how the game is now ruined, and it long ago got to the point where if you want to legitimately disagree with the devs without roping yourself in with those people, you need to take care to be respectful and insightful and polite, otherwise you really can’t blame us for groaning that the insane idiot asylum has broken loose again. At the very least, you certainly shouldn’t start up some aggravated narrative about how the game is RUINED now, because that’s exclusively the reserve of crazy people at this point.
Of course, this topic is already off to a great start: a lot of CAM detractors here have already had dummy-spits about how this feature sullies the purity of skillful play, declaring that KI is ruined and they’ll stop playing or only play privately unless CAM is banned in ranked/tournaments or whatever. It doesn’t engender a sense of concern in me that we might lose valuable community members over this – it just makes it easy for me to write this off as another opportunity for the community to lure out the bad elements and purge them, so that the community as a whole once again become slightly more pleasant for their loss.
I’ve already made my thoughts clear above, but I think
- UltraDavid would probably make it into Killer in one session, and asking him to stop using CAM at that point is tantamount to asking him to either quit KI immediately or ■■■■ his hands up doing repeated quarter-circles. There are a lot of other potential players just like him who could climb the ranks quickly, and even others who play now with disabilities who could benefit from CAM. Why should any of them jeopardize their health just for your misplaced sense of even footing?
- CAM hasn’t been shown to affect decision-making in a match. All reactions are the same, this doesn’t change confirms like some thought it might, etc. It is conjectured that we might get some gnarly option selects from CAM, but none are known that change the decisions one would otherwise make. One OS is known which can mitigate an execution error by turning a (“unsafe”, kinda) whiffed manual into DP ender into something plus on block, but players don’t decide to whiff the manual, whiffing the manual is utterly uninteresting from a strategic standpoint, and I want the SFV link buffer which would make said manual virtually unwhiffable in high-level play to be added to KI.
EDIT: oh, and even if some relevant OSes develop, why not let them rock for a while? The topic can always be revisited, the devs care about tournament play, and they didn’t introduce this feature without thinking about it far longer and harder than we have.
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Yes, we played in a long set a while ago and you won. Even then though, neither of us dropped openers or linkers. Basically my point that linker and opener consistency eventually become irrelevant to deciding the outcome of matches by mid-level.
Not sure if its been allowed/disallowed at Winter Brawl, but it would definitely default to “allowed” because it is permissible in ranked play as part of the game.
No, it’s not ■■■■ near impossible. I thought that at first, but after playing about a month, I was able to do it multiple times. And this was without Combo Assist. So it’s doable, just need to keep practicing. But it is an advanced lesson.
And yes I know that does feed into that being an advantage, but I can say that I almost NEVER use a combo like that in a real fight.
Man, what a nightmare that thread was…ugggggh.
I guess another point I feel compelled to raise is, you may value this idea of the sanctity of a perfectly level playing field and all, but since my internet connection is garbage, I spent a bunch of time playing against the ■■■■■■■ AI – which so utterly subverts the design assumptions of the game as to make the idea of a “level playing field” laughable – until IG did the amazing thing of building Shadows mode, a feature which allowed me to get in regular games against opponents who exhibited some semblance of credible human-like decision-making. That was an utter revelation for me, and my game improved dramatically over the course of maybe a day. That was the day on which frame-trapping went from vaguely understood concept to completely acquired potent strategy for me.
What I’m getting at is, I can’t understand why you’re making such a big deal about potentially facing opponents who use an assisted control scheme when the substance of their play is still going to be that of a credible human opponent. That’s the precious thing, right there. By introducing CAM, IG is once again attempting to ensure the supply of such credible opponents, because they are the lifeblood of the game.
In fact, the overall substance of opponents is likely to be of higher quality now: they’re incentivised to approach on the ground because their hits easily convert into flashy openers, and they’re maybe even disincentivised from jumping because their opponents might get better damage off of anti-airs. For a lot of them, that badass opener they get on the ground might make it so they don’t even think of jumping in as their primary means of approach. What that means is, less Jumping Jagos! They’re still going to suck because they’re beginners and they’re mashing, but it’s still fun to fight a beginner who plays a ground game, at least compared to beating a Jumping Jago which is akin to friggen pulling teeth. Surely you’d rather fight a largely grounded CA Jago than a non-CA Jumping Jago, right?!? 
Hell I’d be all for one-button DPs if I wasn’t worried about mashing out of pressure. Maybe we could even have just a button with 10 frames of startup that places a gigantic hitbox in the sky in front of you. Because ■■■■ Jumping Jagos. I want to play a proper match, ffs.
That’s not what “scrub” means. A good player can be a scrub and a total newbie doesn’t have to be a scrub at all. “Scrub” is a derogatory term for people who attempt to stop you from using a tactic that the game allows because it’s “cheap”.
Actually, opener-ultra is still something you see some people not doing consistently in tournaments. It’s something I find difficult, too, because I’m a pad player and I can’t stand the left shoulder button macros and I’ve just not focused on getting things like wind kick → ultra down.
Given everything I’ve said in this thread, it shouldn’t come as a surprise for me to say that I’d be happy to see tournament players switch CA on just for ultra if it means they’ll get opener-ultra more consistently.
I’ll have to disagree with you here. Opener->ultra isn’t generally missed at high level because the player flubs the input for ultra, it is missed because the player is mashing his opener button and winds up getting an extra AD that he isn’t looking for. CAM isn’t going to fix this - if you’re mashing that opener button when it hits, then it’s going to give you that same AD before it registers your ultra shortcut button press. It’s not so much that the ultra input is really “missed” at all, it’s that the player has spammed the game with a bunch of commands that say “input AD” before it can even register that the player wants to do the ultra.
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I can’t do Opener > Ultra with CA on. It’s too weird for me. But that might be me not doing the execution right due to me playing on an arcade stick now. LOL 
And I see tons of good players Opener > Ultra all the time. Is it that rare?
People don’t necessarily drop ultras, more like they forget they exist, which is odd considering how important a mechanic is. You’ll often see players go for longer combos instead of just opener into ultra and every time I’ve asked someone at a tournament why they didn’t just ultra they say because they simply forgot they could do that.
actually my problem with it is a bit deeper.
My mindset would change vs a equally skilled opponent.
Just a short example:
If someone has ca on i would not try left right shenanigans cause i know if he hits me i eat a opener regardless of direction.
But since i dont know he uses it - i have to guess if he uses it.
That is just one example - apply this to every os found (even in the future) that is based on having CA activated, to jab pressure and dp-ing in between, auto corrected punishes and so on.
Just yesterday i played with tj ( my skill with him matchup wise is very low though) vs a cinder of a friend of mine. I rolled and he did a instant air axe kick (the recap) i ended crossing up (or better crossing under 
) and hitting him with a st. Close mk into nothing cause i did not expected to cross up/under. I did the input b+f + mp in the wrong direction and nothing came out - i like that. I miscalculated the situation and next time i try to think ahead. With combo assist on i would got a option select cause the b+f mp wich is his command throw would turn into a spinfist opener (the wrong input gets ignored). I made a mistake but would get corrected by the combo assist. On a sidenote The more i test the mode the more option selects i find.
But let me guess stuff like i described can never happen in a competitive match… sorry for being sarcastic.
Maybe now you understand a bit why i dont want to play vs people with CA activated.
My guess is that any meaningful OS that gets found will involve the opener state. If the mode didn’t have opener assist, most OSes wouldn’t really matter (because there are no meaningful linker OSes to worry about), and the opener assist is really the only thing that can be used in neutral. Your “DP or opener” example would be a little worse with the opener assist turned off (you would still not whiff DP but at least you wouldn’t get a safe on block opener attempt, so if the guy presses a button or a breaker, you aren’t starting a new combo with frame trap manual xx opener).
At the same time, I think the opener assist is pretty important for beginners. So I dunno. :\
On the plus side, I showed someone combo assist tonight. This person is an experienced gamer and has played KI on my Xbox in the past and liked it… he likes fighting games in general but has never invested any time in them past basic button mashing. I wanted to see how combo assist would affect his enjoyment of the game. I told him “once you hit someone, keep mashing buttons. When you want the combo to end, hold forward and hit this button”, then got him to play some vs CPU matches.
Of course, as the matches start, he mashes a few attacks and blows out the combo because he forgets to do the ender thing. I just watch him play, sometimes reminding him to hold forward and press a button… eventually he does it. “Oh, was that an ender?” I tell him what an ender looks like… a half-flashy move that makes the camera shift a bit and the guy gets knocked away from you. I contrast that with what it looks like when the KV blows out.
Long story short, he actually started asking me questions about how the game worked. Like… why would you want to do an ender? So I explain the concept of white life, and a few matches later he notices the CPU has a bunch of white life and does a short combo and cashes it out, intentionally telling me “oh so I want to get rid of that white life fast, like I did there”. He starts randomly doing shadow linkers because he’s still mashing, and he notices, on his own, that shadow moves don’t increase the KV. “Oh, so I want to do an ender before 100, but if I get a flashy move, the bar doesn’t go up, I get it.”
After like an hour of this, trying out all the characters (after I told him about the ultra assist, he wanted to see some ultra combos), he was having a ton of fun. His combos were still extremely breakable and he would never beat a half-decent player, but the mere fact that he actually asked meaningful questions about how the game works was really cool. His mind was freed from trying to do stupid motions he wasn’t going to be able to do and he actually tried to learn something without me prompting him at all. It was really cool to see.
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i suggested it earlier to maybe remove the opener assist cause from what i have found every os is based exactly on the opener assist.
And to every player that has no fan view i brought up legit concerns that in its current state assist mode is just not right and tbh i can not believe that while testing the mode stuff like this did not got recognized cause i just played without and in certain situations (where i was mad at myself) i asked myself what happend if i had combo assist activated.
And to your example - yes thats fine and i like if it helps people like him. But i dont like that it can give better or advanced players a edge over someone that does not use - similar skill without it as basis of course. And from a competitive point of view this can not be ignored. And competition to me isnt just tournaments.
Game was not easy enough? Like really… there is no need for that! Everyone will use this assist because there is no “why not” in this system! Omg…
I think there are 2 ways of looking at this. It’s all a matter of perspective.
A) You find that you dislike not having manual controls, or that it doesn’t do anything to help you improve. Basically you find that you feel Combo Assist doesn’t work for you. You turn it off and don’t bother using it.
B) You find that Combo Assist opens up new possibilities for you, allows you to do things that you didn’t have the skill to execute consistently without it, basically doing its job. You keep it on to whatever varying degree you see fit.
As far as dealing with your opponent, whether or not they’re using Combo Assist…
If you think they may be using combo assist to get easy openers (or they are just good at opening you up), get defensive and watch for patterns so you can plan accordingly. If they start getting predictable or do something unsafe, punish.
If they do manage to open you up for a combo, then do the thing that this game has sold itself on as a feature (to the point where it became a meme) for its entire existence: Do a C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! Regardless of whether they’re using Combo Assist or not, if their combo is just linkers and doubles, you’ll find a break point. If they’re someone who doesn’t know how to mix up combos with manuals and unique character traits and resets etc, then it won’t matter what control scheme they’re using.
When it comes to KI updates, I have a different philosophy than some. Instead of going to one side of the fence or the other, I generally try to look at any new updates, characters, buffs/nerfs/berfs, or features that are added to the game as neither positive or negative. I try to look at it as “Okay. This is in the game now. Can I utilize it, and/or how do I deal with it?” I admit I often fail at this, but it’s saved me a few headaches playing the game.
With the example of option select: Am I going to use it? Nope. I gave it a try for a few minutes and just couldn’t get comfortable with it. Could I still utilize it? Yeah, it means all the people I had to babysit and be gentle with the game before can now at least combo just as easily as I could about a year and a half ago, which means I can play with them more seriously and maybe teach them about meta stuff instead of saying "Oi, the A button’s at the bottom. This isn’t the Wii U, silly!"
Am I going to get miffed if I lose a match to someone I wouldn’t have before because they were using combo select? Probably not. If I lose to someone, I try to look at what I did wrong or the things they did that bent me out of shape. This is a game where I know that victory and defeat hinge on good decisions and/or tactical errors on my part.
It could be worse. After Pre Patch Model 1887’s Akimbo in MW2, I think I’ll live through some new players with easier buttons.
But again, perspective. I’ll do me and you’ll do you at the end of the day. Can’t really stop you from going through life, looking at the world in whatever way you see fit, and I’d be a buttmunch if I were going to try and make you stop doing that. Just think about it for a while.
Cheers, mate. I shall return to lurking in the thread.
(Speaking of thread, 500 posts holy cow this is getting traffic)
I think for mid tier level player, you are correct, but for intermediate to high level players, they have such quick reflexes, that when they see that roll under happen they immediately enter the opposite direction of B-F to F-B and they are still able to get that opener that they wanted. Granted it’s a quick read/hard read, but it’s not impossible. Though that is pretty high skill, which I think you are worried about because a beginner shouldn’t be able to do that right?
@Infilament, that seems like the exact reason this mode should exist. Sounds a lot like how I was trying to explain to my brother before CA came out on how to play the game. And he’s played KI2/KI Gold a lot in the past when we were younger and he was pretty decent at the game. So he kinda gets the idea of Opener → AD → Linker → Ender, but he kept getting lost in his combo. That part frustrated him because he understood the concept, but couldn’t execute.
I’ve been on vacation so I haven’t had a chance to use it, but I almost guarantee that I won’t. I’ve played KI since launch and I am comfortable with the control scheme to not use it. I know that I am not the only one that feels that way.
To be honest what really chaps my hide in KI is playing exhibition matches against someone that feels each time they win they need to rock out a full/double/triple ultra EVERY TIME. If there was a way to force them to do ultra ender so we can start the next match, that would be much better.